London v the provinces

[Lost Leader]

Way back in the dim and distant past, when I first started reading this forum, I got the distinct impression that if you wanted a top quality MJ dance experience you simply had to go to the London venues like Hipsters, Funky Lush and Ashtons. Nowhere else really came close. Now, I personally never visited any of these venues so I cannot speak from personal experience. It is just that my recollection is that London events seemed to loom very large on the forum in terms of where was "hot" and where the best dancers could be found.

Fast forward to 2009, most if not all of the "legendary" London venues have closed, those that remain don't quite seem to have the seem aura about them. The venues of choice in the London area now seem to be more likely out in the suburbs (e.g.Twickenham) and /or close to the M25 (e.g.Watford, Berko) making them more accessible to those living outside London.

What is perhaps even more significant is that there are now what seems like an increasing number of generally acclaimed venues / events in other parts of the UK (for example the Daventry free-styles, Dr.Chill at Wetherby, Red Hot and Blue in Edinburgh, Maja's tea dances in Shrewsbury, Sara White's free-styles, Utopia Evesham etc.etc.). I cannot quote any statistics but I just get the impression that there are more top quality venues and free-styles scattered about the country than in the past which perhaps means that MJ has become less London centric than it used to be.

This is just my impression and I may be totally wrong. Perhaps there always were great venues and free-styles out in the provinces but I just wasn't aware of them. Perhaps the London venues were never as "hot" as I perceived them to be judging by comments on the forum.

What does everyone else think?

[Maxine]

For me the benefit of living on the East London/Essex borders is the accessibility of Freestyles within an hours drive eg Twickenham, Watford, Berko, Essex and Kent, which means that every weekend I can dance the whole weekend if I wish and often with a choice of venues. Also you have overlooked freestyles held at Hammersmith and Chiswick at least once a month that are usually really high quality, often with the addition of a blues room.

Since New Year I have attended 7 really excellent freestyles, plus Berko every Sunday

So what I’m trying to say is that the quality of freestyle is not necessarily better than anywhere else in the country but I think the availability and quantity of freestyle is the advantage.

Lastly I used to love Ashtons and still lament it’s passing

[Gadget]

Scotland has always has had top quality MJ dancers. Just that there are proportionally more people in London, so you will get proportionally more 'top quality' MJ dancers in a more concentrated area. :shrug:

Perhaps it's that more of our dancers are moving further afield and taking the provinces up to that level with their presence?

[ant]

I also think that there has been a ripple effect of specialist rooms especially Blues Rooms from weekenders to all parts of the country. Where this happens it then attracts the best dancers to thoes venues and this in turns ups their reputation.

[fletch]

when I first started reading the forum the comments about 'Hipsters', etc. made me want to check out the action, so I started travelling.

It has been several months since I have danced in London and its only now i'm getting back into my dancing and feeling strong enough to take London on again.

I'm very excited about the opening of Stokies new venue 'Stokies' I really think this will put The Midlands 'up north' on the map for dancers, its only two junctions away from me

[StokeBloke]

when I first started reading the forum the comments about 'Hipsters', etc. made me want to check out the action, so I started travelling.

It has been several months since I have danced in London and its only now i'm getting back into my dancing and feeling strong enough to take London on again.

I'm very excited about the opening of Stokies new venue 'Stokies' I really think this will put The Midlands 'up north' on the map for dancers, its only two junctions away from me

It is thanks to Fletch that we started travelling to dance. Making new friends, being around different styles, trying new things, seeing different venues and having a different experience of a dance night accelerated me as a dancer. My favorite venue's in London were later overtaken by venues elsewhere in the country. The London dancers are great as they are by the very nature of the place. They are exposed to all manner of styles and influences. However, a venue is only an empty shell. There is nothing Narnia about Ashtons. It was a great space, and the promoters made the very most of it. Attracting great dancers by playing awesome music.

Unfortunately London seems to be getting a bit stale. Someone said something to me after Derby UTOPIA the other night. "The problem with London is, the motorway only goes in one direction!" Obviously this isn't totally true, as there are some travelling dancers in London. But proportionally it's quite a small percentage of dancers who are interested in seeing what else is available, and seeing how that will develop things for them. So you go to London events and see the same old faces doing the same old stuff. I am not saying what they're doing is wrong, or bad.... it's just the same. Therefore it lacks the excitement it used to have.

Dance works best when you have something that is in flux. A great example of this is the Rugby freestyles, run by Kirk and DJ'd by Marc & Rachel. It draws from a large catchment, and the music is top notch. But you're never sure who's going to turn up - often friends you may not have seen or danced with for months. It's the same with weekenders, especially the more central ones. See dancing isn't just about dancing, it's about catching up with friends and socialising too. That's what can turn a great night into a memorable one. Exciting dancing needs divercity, it needs choice and it needs flux.

[Jay Jay]

I have most certainly 'spread my wings' since I have started dancing.....when I began Chigwell was my nearest venue and I remember thinking how brilliant it was and how it was all I needed for my once a week escape....but having moved on, my escape has become up to three times a week taking over somewhat but hey..and I travel to Berko, Twickenham, Chiswick, Watford and Chesham all not close but driveable for an evenings dancing.....at a push....and then there are the weekenders.

I don't think there is a London v the provinces they can all be good and they can all be lousy for me it is just about being within the capability of being able to get home on the same night...it is diffficult when your partner cannot understand the feeling of what dance can do for you let alone travel for over an hour to get there!

Everyone is governed by where they live to an extent...I am not a 'London is the best snob' by any means. I do look forward to the big events the most which pull people in from all over.

.....and how exciting I am coming up to Stoke in March

[dave the scaffolder]

Stokie you are talking sense here.

What the hell is happening to you man?

It is easy to get stuck in the same old same old, however now and again it is nice to travel to new venue's, and just let our dancing do the talking instead of our reputations.

DTS XXX XXX

[Gerry]

when I first started reading the forum the comments about 'Hipsters', etc. made me want to check out the action, so I started travelling.

[quote=fletch;529521]

It is thanks to Fletch that we started travelling to dance. Making new friends, being around different styles, trying new things, seeing different venues and having a different experience of a dance night accelerated me as a dancer. My favorite venue's in London were later overtaken by venues elsewhere in the country. The London dancers are great as they are by the very nature of the place. They are exposed to all manner of styles and influences. However, a venue is only an empty shell. There is nothing Narnia about Ashtons. It was a great space, and the promoters made the very most of it. Attracting great dancers by playing awesome music.

Unfortunately London seems to be getting a bit stale. Someone said something to me after Derby UTOPIA the other night. "The problem with London is, the motorway only goes in one direction!" Obviously this isn't totally true, as there are some travelling dancers in London. But proportionally it's quite a small percentage of dancers who are interested in seeing what else is available, and seeing how that will develop things for them. So you go to London events and see the same old faces doing the same old stuff. I am not saying what they're doing is wrong, or bad.... it's just the same. Therefore it lacks the excitement it used to have.

Dance works best when you have something that is in flux. A great example of this is the Rugby freestyles, run by Kirk and DJ'd by Marc & Rachel. It draws from a large catchment, and the music is top notch. But you're never sure who's going to turn up - often friends you may not have seen or danced with for months. It's the same with weekenders, especially the more central ones. See dancing isn't just about dancing, it's about catching up with friends and socialising too. That's what can turn a great night into a memorable one. Exciting dancing needs divercity, it needs choice and it needs flux.

I was at Hipsters from the beginning. It was certainly the place to be due to the large number of diverse dancers that travelled regularly to the venue from all around the country. It was fun to see so many different dance styles dancing to the music of the great John Brett.

The lessons from Nigel and Nina were always great fun and Amir added another dimension to the great teaching.

I had travelled a little in the first six years of my dancing but after my marriage broke up I started to spread my wings by travelling to more weekenders and places such as Daventry.

With going out with the most travelled lady in MJ I saw most of the Midlands, I always found some fun people to dance with on our travels, I also found lots of bouncy dancers. You know what, there are lots of bouncy dancers in London as well. I suppose London just seemed to have a greater concentration of different dance styles.

What is really great now is that I can go to so many more Venues and always find some great people to dance with.

Lastly, there is an abundance of great DJ’s dotted around the country that play great music to dance to, OXO, John Baker, CJ, Dance Demon, Blue Shoes, Dr Chill, Mark and the Lovely Rachel to name but a few. London is lucky to have the likes of Vince, Rocky and John Brett. This is another reason to broaden your horizon and hear great music in lots of great venues.

[Gus]

I also think that there has been a ripple effect of specialist rooms especially Blues Rooms from weekenders to all parts of the country. Where this happens it then attracts the best dancers to thoes venues and this in turns ups their reputation.

Interesting ... this thread, and many Forum debates, seem to automatically equate Blues room dancing with 'Advanced/Better' dancing ... why? I would say there are still a whole tranche of people who don't reside in the Blues room who are excellent dancers by any standard. I appreciate that WCS is 'in vogue' and dominates the pages of this esteemed Forum ... but is it too radical to suggest that there is more?

[Double Trouble]

Forum debates, seem to automatically equate Blues room dancing with 'Advanced/Better' dancing ... why?

The first weekender I went on in Camber, I spent most of my time in the Blues Room. I'm pleased to say that (at the time) I had no idea about this forum and the whole Blues Room Clique, otherwise I might not have ventured in there at all.

I go in the blues room because I prefer the music, I like smooth dancing and I don't like dancing at 100 miles an hour only to be sweating my jubblies off after 2 dances.

I hate the fact that it's generally thought that rubbish dancers stay in the main room and good dancers go in the blues room. It's nonsense, you should be able to dance where ever you like, without feeling like you're out of your depth. Blues is a preference, not a swimming certificate.

As for London v the provinces - personally, I think the location is irrelevant.

[Trouble]

I don't like dancing at 100 miles an hour only to be sweating my jubblies off after 2 dances.

Sweaty Jubblies are very attractive i think!!! Well mine are.... ,<cough, cough, splutter, cough>

But yes i agree with you sis. Venue is not important in the world of dance. Much more important to me are the people going and the music likely to be played.

Another little point is that the organisers are quite important to me. If an organiser or teacher is rude or arrogant, does not matter what that venue is like i will never attend it again.

[Double Trouble]

i agree with you sis.

Blimey, can I have that in writing?


oh...hang on a minute.

[Gav]

Sweaty Jubblies are very attractive i think!

[StokeBloke]

Interesting ... this thread, and many Forum debates, seem to automatically equate Blues room dancing with 'Advanced/Better' dancing ... why?

Twirlie Bird and me do all we can to encourage people into the blues room. This isn't totally altruistic, as the more blues dancers there are, the more playmates we have to dance with. The general feedback we get from newer dancers is they're scared of the slow music and they don't know how to do 'the moves'. There are others who are worried about the UCP nature of the blues room.

Blues music is no harder or easier than most other music to dance to. IF you are dancing to the music and not just stringing together a bunch of random moves you've learned in a weekly class. Therein lies the biggest problem, a lot of people are not taught how to dance, but how to do dance moves. But the transition from 'doing a bunch of dance moves' to being a dancer is tantalisingly simple.

I would say there are still a whole tranche of people who don't reside in the Blues room who are excellent dancers by any standard. I appreciate that WCS is 'in vogue' and dominates the pages of this esteemed Forum ... but is it too radical to suggest that there is more?

At the last Southport I went into one of the other rooms and just sat in a corner for an hour watching other dancers in awe (a the bonus of the extra time you get at weekenders). The blues room is not some sort of elite club, however when you have shared the experience of dancing through to 5, 6, 7am in the Southport (soon to be Skeggy) blues room with a very small group of people as the sun rises. Then a couple of hours of dancing later you all flake out in a restaurant for a cooked breakfast. Chatting, eating, laughing and discussing music, dancing and life in general - then of course you are going to bond with these people. That does NOT make it elite. The 'clique' is so easy to join.... just come along and dance, if you don't know how to... ask someone... I don't know a single dance who would refuse to help someone trying expand their repertoire. Even if you can't dance right through the night... you'll build bonds and connections like you wouldn't believe. Skeggy's just around the corner now - come and see for yourselves

[David Bailey]

There are others who are worried about the UCP nature of the blues room.

<Captain Renault>: I'm shocked, shocked to find that UCP dancing is going on in here! </Captain Renault>

Blues music is no harder or easier than most other music to dance to.

Blues music is a damnsight more difficult to dance Modern Jive to, because the tempo doesn't work with most MJ movements. For example, the accordion-style actions Gadget refers to here:

- The elasticity of swing dances, including MJ is based upon partners coming together and bouncing away from each other again.

And that simply doesn't work for slow-tempo tracks. If you try to dance classic MJ to blues, then - at best - you look like you're dancing in slow-motion.

So it's a learning curve. And it's reasonable that some people recognise this, and feel they're not ready for it.

[StokeBloke]

<Captain Renault>: I'm shocked, shocked to find that UCP dancing is going on in here! </Captain Renault>



Blues music is a damnsight more difficult to dance Modern Jive to, because the tempo doesn't work with most MJ movements. For example, the accordion-style actions Gadget refers to here:


And that simply doesn't work for slow-tempo tracks. If you try to dance classic MJ to blues, then - at best - you look like you're dancing in slow-motion.

So it's a learning curve. And it's reasonable that some people recognise this, and feel they're not ready for it.

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read what was written about people not being taught to dance, but being taught how to string together random 'moves'. Inwardly digest that in the context of what else was written in that post, rather than spend your time finding quotes to back up what you think you read

[David Bailey]

Seems to be my week for being contentious

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read what was written about people not being taught to dance, but being taught how to string together random 'moves'.

Yep, I got that and agree with it. That's not the point.

My point was that Modern Jive as commonly taught and danced ("classic" MJ if you will) has a certain natural tempo - for the sake of argument let's say 120-140BPM. That tempo just "works" with the typical accordion-type movements which make up most of Modern Jive, because those movements mostly depend on a certain level of momentum being maintained.

That has very little to do with as a string of moves or not - the component steps in Modern Jive all have that restriction. Try dancing MJ to that tempo without using that motion - it's not easy.

And blues music, being outside the tempo (call it 80-100 BPM), means that it's impossible to effectively use that motion. So it's more difficult to dance to, for a Modern Jiver, whether stringing moves together or not.

As an example, I refer you to the 2007 Blues Championships at Breeze - frankly, most of the dancers there look like they're dancing in slow-mo, and these are good Modern Jivers.

So, that's my first point - that the tempo makes it difficult.

My second point followed on from that - if people are reluctant to enter the Blues Room, then perhaps they have reason. Yes, OK, as with the hijacking discussion, you'll never get better if you don't practice, and everyone has to start somewhere - but if you don't know how to dance it, and you try to bop along MJ-stylee, you'll just disrupt things for others. God knows there's been enough whingeing about that sort of thing in the past on this forum. So if I did want to encourage non-blues dancers to a Blues Room, I'd probably - at the least - suggest a couple of tips beforehand (i.e. keep it slow, relax, forget moves, that sort of thing).

MJ Blues is a different style of dance to MJ classic. It really is.

[philsmove]

As ever, we seem to have drifted off topic

My first Blues lesson was in the provinces and I was taught by long legged dusky maiden, proper blues can only be danced (a) after 2am and (b) in a smoked filled room

Given that most dance venues, in the providences, have closed by 2 am and those that are open do not allow smoking, I am not really sure if proper Blues can be danced anymore, I certainly have never seen the long legged dusky maiden again

[ant]

So, that's my first point - that the tempo makes it difficult.

I'd probably - at the least - suggest a couple of tips beforehand (i.e. keep it slow, relax, forget moves, that sort of thing).

MJ Blues is a different style of dance to MJ classic. It really is.

DB I agree with you about transfering classic MJ type moves that require momentum being transferred to the Blues Room

But what about the other way round. I would say it is a lot easier to transfer moves and styles of dance coming out of Blues Room into a classic Modern Jive room.