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Thread: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    For the third (and probably final) time, if you have any specific questions I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability.
    Ok...I have some questions...about how MJ is taught in Australia/NZ?

    1) Do you use a Starter Step in MJ?

    2) Is MJ taught as body led or arm led?

    3) How is MJ counted? 1& 2& 3& 4& or 12 34 56 78?

    4) What beat do you start on?

    5) How do you pulse the dance?

    6) Is it mainly danced Rotational or Slotted?

    7) Do you know of any other differences I may not have mentioned in the teaching of MJ in UK and Australia/NZ?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Well - even if Alan won't, I'll take you up on this one - mainly because I'm genuinely curious. Is body-leading taught as the standard leading technique in NZ MJ?
    No. The teaching is generally more technical down under than the in the UK, but not quite that much.

    For the most part leaders will be consistently given leading tips like how to help in assisted spins, how to create a nice stable base for leans/dips/drops, how to slide their hand down from the ladies shoulder to her hand if he wants while she's moving (much easier and better looking than "catching the hand") and when and where to place their hands for moves that require a bit finer timing.

    More fundamental stuff like leading from the core or using the right arm as the leading one in a closed hold tends to be ignored, so people do whatever comes most naturally. Usually that means arm leading.


    1) Do you use a Starter Step in MJ?
    Nope.

    2) Is MJ taught as body led or arm led?
    See my reply to Straycat above.

    3) How is MJ counted? 1& 2& 3& 4& or 12 34 56 78?
    The first way. It drives me crazy too.

    4) What beat do you start on?
    It depends on how musically aware the teacher is. Very few count people in to start only on the first 1 in any set of 8. A few manage to start people off on either the 1 or the 5. Most just start counting whenever they feel like it.

    5) How do you pulse the dance?
    It isn't addressed specifically as that, but in practice the "step" footwork introduces something akin to a pulse. The basic stepping structure is step-together-step-together, with each word in that string falling on a separate beat. Different teachers put differing emphasis on the importance of the footwork, so there's still a reasonable amount of variation out there.

    Of course, the good people don't stick to that footwork either, but it goes a fair way to ironing out some of the more common "intermediate" issues like over extension when dancers are going through that stage.

    6) Is it mainly danced Rotational or Slotted?
    Much like the UK, it's usually taught in a slot and doesn't stay that way in freestyle. That said, not many teachers push the slot very much anyway so that isn't too surprising.

    7) Do you know of any other differences I may not have mentioned in the teaching of MJ in UK and Australia/NZ?
    The biggest thing that comes to mind is the culture. The classes are a bit more classy, and the girls in particular seem more interested in getting something "right" (usually after I was the one who messed up... go figure).

    It's still social, but not as social as the UK. Freestyles are typically a bit shorter than the ones in London as well, but I don't know if Londons freestyles are that representative of the UK at large.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    No. The teaching is generally more technical down under than the in the UK, but not quite that much.

    For the most part leaders will be consistently given leading tips like how to help in assisted spins, how to create a nice stable base for leans/dips/drops, how to slide their hand down from the ladies shoulder to her hand if he wants while she's moving (much easier and better looking than "catching the hand") and when and where to place their hands for moves that require a bit finer timing.

    More fundamental stuff like leading from the core or using the right arm as the leading one in a closed hold tends to be ignored, so people do whatever comes most naturally. Usually that means arm leading.
    I feel that MJ is very similar to East Coast Swing (in fact from the waist upwards a lot of the moves are essentially the same on the timing and footwork is different) and I'd adopt the same way of teaching to use a body lead in Modern Jive as it is done in East Coast Swing (Skippy showed me how to do this and it's not as difficult as people might think).

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    It depends on how musically aware the teacher is. Very few count people in to start only on the first 1 in any set of 8. A few manage to start people off on either the 1 or the 5. Most just start counting whenever they feel like it.
    There is a starter step in WCS, Cha Cha, Hustle, etc.. I think introducing a 4-beat starter step in Modern Jive would be beneficial because it would have everyone starting on beat 1 as opposed to beat 8. Then they are then dancing on the downbeat as opposed to dancing on the upbeat. The moves are not changed, the benefit is the difference in the way it looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    It isn't addressed specifically as that, but in practice the "step" footwork introduces something akin to a pulse. The basic stepping structure is step-together-step-together, with each word in that string falling on a separate beat. Different teachers put differing emphasis on the importance of the footwork, so there's still a reasonable amount of variation out there.

    Of course, the good people don't stick to that footwork either, but it goes a fair way to ironing out some of the more common "intermediate" issues like over extension when dancers are going through that stage.
    Also pulsing the dance i.e. emphasing the downbeat or the upbeat also makes a big difference to the look of the dance. WCS emphasises the upbeat and I think MJ should emphasise the downbeat. If you don't recognise that the downbeat and upbeat are two separate beats and should be counted 12 (down, up), 34 (down, up), 56 (down, up), 78 (down, up) and not counted half time 1& (down, up), 2& (down, up), 3& (down, up), 4& (down, up) this becomes much harder...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    Much like the UK, it's usually taught in a slot and doesn't stay that way in freestyle. That said, not many teachers push the slot very much anyway so that isn't too surprising.
    I'd like to see it taught in a slot but the teachers placing more emphasis on keeping it slotted in freestyle.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Ok...I have some questions...about how MJ is taught in Australia/NZ?
    Well I can only answer about how I (think I) teach, but I'll have a go ...

    1) Do you use a Starter Step in MJ?
    No idea. What's one of them?

    2) Is MJ taught as body led or arm led?
    I try to teach body leads where I can. There's not a lot of time to get technical in many classes.

    3) How is MJ counted? 1& 2& 3& 4& or 12 34 56 78?
    For normal classes, the former, for routines, the latter.

    4) What beat do you start on?
    I guess it depends on how you define "start". Right foot starts moving on 8 (from previous bar), movement completes on 1?

    5) How do you pulse the dance?
    Again, I don't understand the term (which doesn't necessarily mean I don't do it (but it's a good bet)).

    6) Is it mainly danced Rotational or Slotted?
    Slotted, but we're not terribly pushy about it.

    7) Do you know of any other differences I may not have mentioned in the teaching of MJ in UK and Australia/NZ?
    I'll leave this to people who have experienced both systems.

    PS, the teaching varies quite a bit between across Australia (even across Sydney)

    PPS, I wouldn't be keen to use any notation system that is a (R)egistered trade mark. We've had enough of that with Ceroc(R), I think?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I feel that MJ is very similar to East Coast Swing (in fact from the waist upwards a lot of the moves are essentially the same on the timing and footwork is different) and I'd adopt the same way of teaching to use a body lead in Modern Jive as it is done in East Coast Swing (Skippy showed me how to do this and it's not as difficult as people might think).
    I recently took a visiting American along to a Ceroc night so he could see what it was all about. His response was also that it looked very similar to East Coast Swing.*

    There is a starter step in WCS, Cha Cha, Hustle, etc.. I think introducing a 4-beat starter step in Modern Jive would be beneficial because it would have everyone starting on beat 1 as opposed to beat 8.
    That’s only true if the starter step is started in the right place in the music. If the teacher is capable of counting that in correctly, they can do the same with any other move too.

    For that matter, if you’re teaching a class routine that phrases to the music, and you want it to be repeatable so your class can practice it without stopping, you can’t usually include the starter without resorting to finishing with a triple-rhythm-break to take it’s place in the second phrase. The numbers just won’t add up any other way.

    Then they are then dancing on the downbeat as opposed to dancing on the upbeat. The moves are not changed, the benefit is the difference in the way it looks.

    Also pulsing the dance i.e. emphasing the downbeat or the upbeat also makes a big difference to the look of the dance. WCS emphasises the upbeat and I think MJ should emphasise the downbeat. If you don't recognise that the downbeat and upbeat are two separate beats and should be counted 12 (down, up), 34 (down, up), 56 (down, up), 78 (down, up) and not counted half time 1& (down, up), 2& (down, up), 3& (down, up), 4& (down, up) this becomes much harder...
    I’m curious, just what does “dancing (or emphasizing) on the downbeat/upbeat” actually mean?

    I’ve heard lots of debate about what MJ should be danced on in recent years. So far the only conclusions I’ve been able to draw is that some people seem to think it’s about when you start the dance on, others think it’s about what foot you’re on when you start it, still more others think it’s about which foot you’re on for the downbeat/upbeat, and yet more think it’s because a pro told them once (but they didn’t bother asking exactly what that meant by that).

    For the record, given that in WCS you may be on either foot on either the upbeat or downbeat (the basic patterns alone ensure this happens) I can’t see how that can be a factor. Also, given that a dance only starts once, inside of around fur beats, and everything after is almost entirely independent of the start, I don’t see how that could be some sort of meaningful classification. I have yet to see anyone explain just what they mean by “emphasize” without referring to which foot they’re on.

    Something doesn’t fit here.


    *Of course, he followed that up very quickly with “do you think anyone here would be insulted if I said that?”, and a concerned look on his face….

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    As a tool for communicating basic move patterns between, say, teachers, I can see the use, but feel in this digital age, a simple vid clip would be far more efficient and useful.
    I'd generally be inclined to agree. Looking at the notation on http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...8&postcount=12 you can see that there are comments below it. Therefore the notation fails to capture all the information we want in a basic step. So it's no good as a "machine language" for a computer to be able to push around a virtual dancer (the way musical notation can drive a MIDI synth) and it doesn't seem the best way to present the information to another human.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    A games programmer would want to to tell a built character to do such things as "run to the door, ducking and weaving." The language used would be precise, repeatable, and understandable by the stupidest thing in the world, a computer.
    One thing about game development is they aren't looking for an accurate model of human bone structures as much as a reasonable approximation that looks good and is cheap. Most of the time, in more modern games, you have an animation for a repeating pattern, so a character walking is a series of instructions about how to move a basic skeletal structure in a walk. This is composed of relative positions for bones at given points in the animation and instructions on how to get from one to the other (this might be in the bone structure itself so a knee joint knows it can't go backwards to get to the next animation). A run animation would be different and there would probably be another, transition, animation between the walk and the run. Their tends to be some flexibility so the animation system can find an approximate middle ground between two animations if, for example, the character is stepping on terrain that is raised to half the knee height so the character can step in a believable fashion onto it (lots of games don't do stuff like this very well). You might have animations to deal with walking over small height changes, animations to deal with climbing over high height changes but nothing to deal with what happens if you have an obstacle at waist level... so you just won't see things like that in the game. Since storing animations in memory and producing animations to use is quite expensive then you'll tend to find that games try to restrict animations or find neat ways to store slightly different hip movement information for female walk animations rather than reanimating the whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Defining what a perfect oncho was would be a major task, but once done an oncho would eventually be able to be marked by automated equipment in terms of marks out of 1000.
    It's an interesting one. For those of you that have played Rockband, Singstar or the likes there is a difference between a computer determining that you have hit a note on time and in the right pitch compared to it actually sounding good. I don't see a computer assessment of technical achievement in dance as any different.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    That’s only true if the starter step is started in the right place in the music. If the teacher is capable of counting that in correctly, they can do the same with any other move too.
    The 4-beat starter step is only used at the start of the dance, it starts on beat 5 and it danced through 8 so the next move starts on count 1 of the next phrase.

    If you are counting:
    1& 2& 3& 4& 5& 6& 7& 8& as opposed to
    12 34 56 78 12 34 56 78

    you're going to start it on the wrong beat!

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    For that matter, if you’re teaching a class routine that phrases to the music, and you want it to be repeatable so your class can practice it without stopping, you can’t usually include the starter without resorting to finishing with a triple-rhythm-break to take it’s place in the second phrase. The numbers just won’t add up any other way.
    You could dance the starter step on 5,6,7,8 before the start of the next phrase. Then the routine should be 32 beats long to phrase and you omit the starter step and repeat the 32 beats to phrase.

    The starter step is only danced once in the dance, to 'start' the dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    I’m curious, just what does “dancing (or emphasizing) on the downbeat/upbeat” actually mean?

    I’ve heard lots of debate about what MJ should be danced on in recent years. So far the only conclusions I’ve been able to draw is that some people seem to think it’s about when you start the dance on, others think it’s about what foot you’re on when you start it, still more others think it’s about which foot you’re on for the downbeat/upbeat, and yet more think it’s because a pro told them once (but they didn’t bother asking exactly what that meant by that).
    Terminology...

    The downbeats are beats 1,3,5,7
    The upbeats are beats 2,4,6,8

    If you start the dance on count 8, you are dancing on the upbeat.
    If you start the dance on count 1, you are dancing on the downbeat.

    You should start the dance on a downbeat or it looks strange, it really changes the look of the dance if you start on beat 1 rather than beat 8.

    Pulsing is a recurring accent that intensifies the essence of a dance. If you accent the downbeat or if you accent the upbeat it changes the look of the dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    For the record, given that in WCS you may be on either foot on either the upbeat or downbeat (the basic patterns alone ensure this happens) I can’t see how that can be a factor. Also, given that a dance only starts once, inside of around fur beats, and everything after is almost entirely independent of the start, I don’t see how that could be some sort of meaningful classification. I have yet to see anyone explain just what they mean by “emphasize” without referring to which foot they’re on.

    Something doesn’t fit here.
    Terminology...

    You don't change the footwork, you're still dancing it using the same footwork, but to accent the downbeat or accent the upbeat, you give more emphasis as you step to the downbeat or upbeat. It doesn't change the pattern, it doesn't change what foot you're on. It changes the look of the dance.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    I'd generally be inclined to agree. Looking at the notation on http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...8&postcount=12 you can see that there are comments below it. Therefore the notation fails to capture all the information we want in a basic step. So it's no good as a "machine language" for a computer to be able to push around a virtual dancer (the way musical notation can drive a MIDI synth) and it doesn't seem the best way to present the information to another human.
    It's like a language, you really need to learn how to read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post

    One thing about game development is they aren't looking for an accurate model of human bone structures as much as a reasonable approximation that looks good and is cheap. Most of the time, in more modern games, you have an animation for a repeating pattern, so a character walking is a series of instructions about how to move a basic skeletal structure in a walk. This is composed of relative positions for bones at given points in the animation and instructions on how to get from one to the other (this might be in the bone structure itself so a knee joint knows it can't go backwards to get to the next animation). A run animation would be different and there would probably be another, transition, animation between the walk and the run. Their tends to be some flexibility so the animation system can find an approximate middle ground between two animations if, for example, the character is stepping on terrain that is raised to half the knee height so the character can step in a believable fashion onto it (lots of games don't do stuff like this very well). You might have animations to deal with walking over small height changes, animations to deal with climbing over high height changes but nothing to deal with what happens if you have an obstacle at waist level... so you just won't see things like that in the game. Since storing animations in memory and producing animations to use is quite expensive then you'll tend to find that games try to restrict animations or find neat ways to store slightly different hip movement information for female walk animations rather than reanimating the whole thing.

    It's an interesting one. For those of you that have played Rockband, Singstar or the likes there is a difference between a computer determining that you have hit a note on time and in the right pitch compared to it actually sounding good. I don't see a computer assessment of technical achievement in dance as any different.
    I've used AI and skeletal animation for game programming....what are you trying to achieve?

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    The 4-beat starter step is only used at the start of the dance, it starts on beat 5 and it danced through 8 so the next move starts on count 1 of the next phrase.

    If you are counting:
    1& 2& 3& 4& 5& 6& 7& 8& as opposed to
    12 34 56 78 12 34 56 78

    you're going to start it on the wrong beat!



    You could dance the starter step on 5,6,7,8 before the start of the next phrase. Then the routine should be 32 beats long to phrase and you omit the starter step and repeat the 32 beats to phrase.

    The starter step is only danced once in the dance, to 'start' the dance.
    Sure, but I believe your reasoning for the starter step was so that everyone could start on beat 1 right? (your words were “I think introducing a 4-beat starter step in Modern Jive would be beneficial because it would have everyone starting on beat 1 as opposed to beat 8.”)

    What you’re now asking is for them to count themselves in so that they start dancing on count 5 rather than count 1. Given that count 1 is almost always the more dominant of the two it’s the easier one for people to count themselves in on. If you’re able to count yourself in on count five, you’re almost certainly more than capable of counting yourself in on count 1 without using a starter step.

    I think you’ll find the purpose of the starter step is to establish connection and feel each other out a little before the dance proper begins. This is why some MJ schools of thought teach “starting” on count 8. It lets the partners start out in leverage an smooths out the start.

    It’s also worth noting that they typically start on the other foot as those starting on 1, which means that immediately after count one there is no difference between the two. Somehow though, this is apparently the difference between dancing on the downbeat and the upbeat….

    Terminology...

    The downbeats are beats 1,3,5,7
    The upbeats are beats 2,4,6,8

    If you start the dance on count 8, you are dancing on the upbeat.
    If you start the dance on count 1, you are dancing on the downbeat.
    Yeah yeah…….. that’s pretty old news.

    You should start the dance on a downbeat or it looks strange, it really changes the look of the dance if you start on beat 1 rather than beat 8.
    For how long? See the first half of this post.

    Pulsing is a recurring accent that intensifies the essence of a dance. If you accent the downbeat or if you accent the upbeat it changes the look of the dance.
    So I can choose to accent either the downbeat or the upbeat, but I’m only dancing MJ if I accent the downbeat right (because it’s apparently a downbeat dance)? What about if I accent the downbeats more often, but pick out some of the funky upbeats in an R&B tune? How about if I have no sense of music and don’t accent anything all – will that still be MJ?

    Terminology...

    You don't change the footwork, you're still dancing it using the same footwork, but to accent the downbeat or accent the upbeat, you give more emphasis as you step to the downbeat or upbeat. It doesn't change the pattern, it doesn't change what foot you're on. It changes the look of the dance.
    I’ll ask again: define what emphasis is then?

    Pulled out from a thread that was before your time Alan, I have the following quote from Myles Munroe ( guy)
    Hi All, Myles Munroe here (Tessa's partner)

    Tessa asked my opinion on this matter and thought my background in multiple dances would lend for a very informative post, so here goes:

    The first question about the possibilty of being limited by dancing upeat/down beat vs. Downbeat/upbeat is a good one, the debate is still going on in the Hustle community and the Nite club Two-step community. There are two answers, one simple, one not so much.
    Once two dancers start moving (one on the down, the other on the up) they will look equally on time. If a hustle dancer or MJ dancer were dancing to a techno song that had bass hits on all beats 1, 2, 3, 4 etc..... then you would not be able to tell the difference of an upbeat dancer or a down beat dancer.
    Here's the trickier part. Most modern music (unlike classical) is accented on the up beats. The main pulse is on the ups (think of what beat you would snap on) and the phrasing and structure of the songs are all set on the 1's or downbeat. This allows people to think it best to dance on the upbeat to stay on the accent. These people will dance to only one aspect of a song. Musicians aren't thinking about dancers when they write music. They will start their instrumentation around the 1 beat and same with the lyrics. When a song hits a break or a dancer starts dancing to the start of the song is where the difference of the downbeat or upbeat dancer shows itself.
    A downbeat dancer will begin moving when the song starts or resumes after a break. An upbeat dancer will either move before or after the start/resume of a song and will appear to be "off-time". Again, once they're going and until the next break they will both look fine except to the musically trained person who understands phrasing.
    Almost every song that we would wcs or mj to will have the breaks on 1 or 5 of an 8 beat measure of music. A down beat dancer will be more likely to be "naturally" hitting it by having their patterns beginning on the downbeats because they will hear the break or phrase change coming a few beats early and will only have to pause or not start a pattern and they will hit the music.
    An Upbeat dancer will have to interupt their patterns or wait an extra count once they hear the break coming. The upbeat dancer will be forcing the breaks as it is more likely that they will be beginning a new pattern on the 8 and have to wait from 7 until the break on 1 or start and stop their patterns.
    As far as the interpretation of music goes, it is in most cases more beneficial to the overall dance to dance on the downbeat. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, again in the case of classical music and most traditional asian songs where the pulses/accents are on the downbeats. These songs would best be danced on the upbeat. (I have a fascinating summary of a study done on Chinese people and North American music and Dance, I'll bring it up in another post if people ask)
    According to this rationalization, both MJ and WCS are downbeat dances rather than WCS being upbeat as you claim.

    So, which is it?
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 23rd-January-2009 at 02:49 AM.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    It's like a language, you really need to learn how to read it.
    Yes... except it's like having a paragraph in Egyptian hieroglyphics, except half of it is in English because the hieroglyphics don't correctly explain most of the concepts. Musical notation is similar but there generally isn't three lines of text under a single bar explaining how that bar should go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I've used AI and skeletal animation for game programming....what are you trying to achieve?
    Cool beans! I've only seen a couple of talks on it and such (it's not the stuff I deal with). I was just saying, in broad terms, how most games store body position and movement information. People speculated if that stuff would be good for storing a dancers position and motion. It could work; of course for gameplay it needs to be used realtime; I expect the likes of Pixar have much more accurate models for use in a non-realtime environment.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Sure, but I believe your reasoning for the starter step was so that everyone could start on beat 1 right? (your words were “I think introducing a 4-beat starter step in Modern Jive would be beneficial because it would have everyone starting on beat 1 as opposed to beat 8.”)

    What you’re now asking is for them to count themselves in so that they start dancing on count 5 rather than count 1. Given that count 1 is almost always the more dominant of the two it’s the easier one for people to count themselves in on. If you’re able to count yourself in on count five, you’re almost certainly more than capable of counting yourself in on count 1 without using a starter step.
    A starter step is one way to get people to start on count 1. In WCS the starter step is not the first move you learn.

    The moves are taught starting on count 1. The problem with modern jive is that the moves are taught to start on count 8.

    If it's easier just to start on count 1, that's exactly what I want to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    I think you’ll find the purpose of the starter step is to establish connection and feel each other out a little before the dance proper begins. This is why some MJ schools of thought teach “starting” on count 8. It lets the partners start out in leverage an smooths out the start.
    A starter step starts on a downbeat, if you are starting on count 8, you are starting on an upbeat which makes the dance seem as if there is something wrong but you can't put your finger on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    It’s also worth noting that they typically start on the other foot as those starting on 1, which means that immediately after count one there is no difference between the two. Somehow though, this is apparently the difference between dancing on the downbeat and the upbeat….
    Yes, if the man is going to step on his left foot on count 1, his weight needs to be on his right foot before he steps with his left foot on count 1 (and visa versa for the girl)

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    So I can choose to accent either the downbeat or the upbeat, but I’m only dancing MJ if I accent the downbeat right (because it’s apparently a downbeat dance)? What about if I accent the downbeats more often, but pick out some of the funky upbeats in an R&B tune? How about if I have no sense of music and don’t accent anything all – will that still be MJ?

    Pulled out from a thread that was before your time Alan, I have the following quote from Myles Munroe ( guy)
    According to this rationalization, both MJ and WCS are downbeat dances rather than WCS being upbeat as you claim.

    So, which is it?
    The two main styles of West Coast are "Classic W.C. Swing (pulsing down) and "Funky or Contemporary W.C. Swing" (pulsing up) with the basic steps being exactly the same, just done to different types of music which gives a different feel and look. Without a good understanding of the 'Classic Style', you can not master the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    I’ll ask again: define what emphasis is then?
    To Pulse a dance means to Accent (or Emphasise or stress) a down beat or upbeat.

    To accent the beat, you're pressing down into the floor as you step (on the downbeat or upbeat).

    The same holds true for MJ, if you accent the downbeat or if you accent the upbeat it gives the dance a different look.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    ... I was just saying, in broad terms, how most games store body position and movement information. People speculated if that stuff would be good for storing a dancers position and motion. It could work; of course for gameplay it needs to be used realtime; I expect the likes of Pixar have much more accurate models for use in a non-realtime environment.
    and in the real world programmers are not just dealing with it looking right, they are dealing with it being right. Robotics is not yet at the level of an MJ first nighter, but there are programmers around the globe ahead of the game developing movement description languages.

    With no disrespect to the dance community the needs and resources are greater in the video games and robotics field. I am sure there is scope for cross-over, but I have no idea how much of the developments are in the public domain. I suspect the best stuff is very much a commercial secret.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I feel that MJ is very similar to East Coast Swing (in fact from the waist upwards a lot of the moves are essentially the same on the timing and footwork is different) and I'd adopt the same way of teaching to use a body lead in Modern Jive as it is done in East Coast Swing (Skippy showed me how to do this and it's not as difficult as people might think).
    Mmmm. So how is it done in ECS? Speaking as a body-lead evangelist, I think that most people underestimate the complexities of it - I certainly did when I first came across the concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    The moves are taught starting on count 1. The problem with modern jive is that the moves are taught to start on count 8.
    Is it really? (not disputing you here - I honestly don't know the answer to this) As NZ Monkey says, far too many MJ teachers tend to count people in on whatever beat happens to be passing them when they want to start...

    Personally, being first and foremost a lindyhopper, I think starting on 1 is the One True Way - I suppose I simply always assumed MJ did the same thing - and it probably says something that after over ten years of MJ classes (albeit quite a few years ago now), I still don't know the official answer to that one.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Mmmm. So how is it done in ECS? Speaking as a body-lead evangelist, I think that most people underestimate the complexities of it - I certainly did when I first came across the concept.
    You firstly need a good connection...

    It's like pushing off a wall, the wall doesn't move.

    The man sets the pole, the pole doesn't move. The man moves his centre back, which causes the lady to move backwards. No pushing or pulling needed. At first I taught that can't work but it does and it's quite simple to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    Is it really? (not disputing you here - I honestly don't know the answer to this) As NZ Monkey says, far too many MJ teachers tend to count people in on whatever beat happens to be passing them when they want to start...

    Personally, being first and foremost a lindyhopper, I think starting on 1 is the One True Way - I suppose I simply always assumed MJ did the same thing - and it probably says something that after over ten years of MJ classes (albeit quite a few years ago now), I still don't know the official answer to that one.
    They count it 5& 6& 7& 8& instead of 12 34 56 78 (they start to dance on & count after 8) -> which is count 8.

    It looks 100 times better when you start on count 1 as opposed to count 8 because you are then dancing on the downbeat and not the upbeat.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    You firstly need a good connection...

    It's like pushing off a wall, the wall doesn't move.

    The man sets the pole, the pole doesn't move. The man moves his centre back, which causes the lady to move backwards. No pushing or pulling needed. At first I taught that can't work but it does and it's quite simple to do.
    Yeah - it's an awesome technique. We usually reserve it for workshops though - (where you can get people to practice by pushing off the nearest wall ) - and where we can dance with students to help them fine-tune it and get the feel right.

    Where I say that it's hard to teach is that if you're going to teach it seriously, it needs to be woven into just about every aspect of the dance. For example - you can't just say: 'Send your partner out' and demonstrate it... because most of the class will automatically arm-lead it. So you have to break down a great deal more technique for everything, right from the start... which is where the dance starts to become far less beginner-friendly, as mentioned earlier.

    I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's far from a simple change... and this is just one of the aspects that you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    They count it 5& 6& 7& 8& instead of 12 34 56 78 (they start to dance on & count after 8) -> which is count 8.

    It looks 100 times better when you start on count 1 as opposed to count 8 because you are then dancing on the downbeat and not the upbeat.
    Yes - you said all that before. My question again: Is the starting on 8 'official' MJ method? Because if so, I was not aware of that.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    What would really move this thread forward, for me, is some video footage of Alan demonstrating some of the points he keeps repeating around upbeats, downbeats, pulsing, etc. I simply don't understand, from his written descriptions, much of what he is talking about. I am not saying that is necessarily my fault or his but I do think I would be a little more enlightened by seeing it in action rather than reading about it.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    .....stuff......
    I'm afraid it's my turn for a rather harsh observation.

    Alan, you appear to be misinterpreting questions and observations so that you can reply with something selected from a small catalog of stock answers (that we've seen several times before), which is often only slightly relevant to the real question. Life is not that simple.

    I know you haven't been around the forum that long, so I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt. I should probably let you know though that all of the contributor's in the last few pages at least have a pretty good grasp on the definitions of upbeat and downbeat, and common methods of phrasing.

    What I've been trying to do with these last few posts is to get you to put down your notebook and think about some of these issues for yourself, in the hope that you'll see where some of the failings in your assertions are. I would also hope that by asking yourself some of these questions you might realize that these issues are all much bigger than you're indicating you think they are, and that an open mind is really quite useful when it comes to learning something.

    It seems I've failed in that task.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Excuse me, but if my lead dances on the upbeat when I want him on the downbeat then I change the time it takes me to do a spin and put him right back where I want him, without him noticing.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    What would really move this thread forward, for me, is some video footage of Alan demonstrating some of the points he keeps repeating around upbeats, downbeats, pulsing, etc. I simply don't understand, from his written descriptions, much of what he is talking about. I am not saying that is necessarily my fault or his but I do think I would be a little more enlightened by seeing it in action rather than reading about it.
    I'd be happy to...but it may be a week or so before I'd get a chance to record some video footage.

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I'd be happy to...but it may be a week or so before I'd get a chance to record some video footage.
    Can you let me know what you'd like me to demonstrate?

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