Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 134

Thread: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

  1. #61
    Registered User ant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Borehamwood, Herts
    Posts
    632
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Anchoring in WCS is the name given to creating an elastic stretch and settling into the connection at the end of patterns. The anchor step is one of WCS’s defining features, and I’ve not seen anything quite like it in any other dances.

    I think you may have missed that context in the above quote. I’m happy to proven wrong if I’ve misunderstood of course, but I think you may be talking at cross-purposes at the moment.
    Sorry if I am sometimes using confusing terminologies. I do not do WCS and I am therefore sometimes using a term that I do know has a specific use in that dance.

    What I am trying to do is put forward an understanding of what Alan Doyle is trying to say within the knowledge I have, as best I can. In the above anchoring=not moving the foot.
    Last edited by ant; 22nd-January-2009 at 02:14 AM.

  2. #62
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Nr Cambridge
    Posts
    3,696
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    I don't know Alan Doyle nor his background nor his teaching credentials but I get a strong feeling here of a blind faith in the 'one true way' that he feels Skippy and the GSDTA have shown him without necessarily understanding the reasons why they advocate certain practices nor acknowledging that there can be equally successful alternatives. I am sorry if this is a mis-representation Alan but it's the way you are coming across to me.

  3. #63
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Yes it is possible to lead it using a body lead, that is why I say it 'should' be taught as a body led dance, but I see it more often than not taught using a arm lead but that's a reflection on the teacher.
    Hmmm.
    Do you really think that changing a dance from being predominantly arm-led to being fully body-led can be done with only 'some slight changes'? You're talking about an area that most have a lot of problems with. This is far from easy to learn or to teach.

    The same really applies to the rest of your list. And even without that - laying aside, for a moment, the whether or not these things are desirable - you're talking about applying a whole new order of technique (body leads, footwork, structure alone are pretty weighty areas) - to a dance where one of the main features is accessibility. One of the main reasons MJ is inherently so beginner-friendly is because it doesn't worry about these things.

    Just a thought - but instead of completely changing an existing dance to fit your newly-discovered ideals, why not simply teach a dance that already fits them? (presumably WCS)

  4. #64
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    681
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Yes it is possible to lead it using a body lead, that is why I say it 'should' be taught as a body led dance, but I see it more often than not taught using a arm lead but that's a reflection on the teacher.
    I have always thought of myself as having two left feet, I tried out Salsa and lasted one lesson due to the footwork being taught. When I went to Ceroc and I had my first MJ lesson, the reason why I stayed was due to there being no regulated footwork. All the leads were down to how I used my arms.

    I would think the reason why Ceroc has been so successful is due to the simple formula that they have devised and kept following.

    Six years later I found that I wanted more and started learning WCS, I went to classes for 7 - 8 months before I made a conscious effort to start trying to dance in freestyles. My teachers told me later that they used to see me every week and say he still hasn't got it and then finally it started to work.

    If there had been so much technique being taught in MJ at the start, there was no way that I would have lasted a month let alone 7 - 8 months.

    I do agree with you that MJ can be body led but the follower would need a good frame and lastly they would need to be waiting to follow your next move as alot of MJivers that I dance with are always on the move even though I have started to lead the next move.
    Last edited by Gerry; 22nd-January-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  5. #65
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Nr Cambridge
    Posts
    3,696
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I do agree with you that MJ can be body led but the follower would need a good frame and lastly they would need to be waiting to follow your next move as alot of MJivers that I dance with are always on the move even though I have started to lead the next move.
    Interesting. Is this inevitable due to the 'accordion' (sp?) nature of the MJ connection and the lack of an anchor? If they are following something other than what you are leading then I'd say they were either anticipating (or ignoring the lead entirely ) and/or you need to improve your lead (not aimed at you specifically G, just a general point) If you want an MJ follower to stop then you need to lead them to stop since I would venture that the default action is movement.

  6. #66
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    York
    Posts
    5,203
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I do agree with you that MJ can be body led but the follower would need a good frame and lastly they would need to be waiting to follow your next move as a lot of MJivers that I dance with are always on the move even though I have started to lead the next move.
    Agree. My simple thoughts on the (thought provoking) debate so far is the "when all is said and done, there is generally far more said than done" ... as with all NEW GREAT IDEAS I prefer to sit back and see if the talk materialises into something concrete.

    Alan, there may well be something in what you say but I think the real acid test is when you come back in 6 months or so with video of dancers you have taught who demonstrate a new level of understanding of MJ and dance accordingly.

    Please don't take this as me doubting your expertise / enthusiasm / methodology ... just that my personal experience is that is very hard to effectively communicate these technical aspects into the average MJ dancer.

  7. #67
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Agree. My simple thoughts on the (thought provoking) debate so far is the "when all is said and done, there is generally far more said than done" ... as with all NEW GREAT IDEAS I prefer to sit back and see if the talk materialises into something concrete.

    Alan, there may well be something in what you say but I think the real acid test is when you come back in 6 months or so with video of dancers you have taught who demonstrate a new level of understanding of MJ and dance accordingly.
    Yes I suppose that is really what is needed to try it out and test it for 6-12 months and see the changes. But before I start changing the way I teach modern jive, I want to talk to some Australian/NZ modern jive teachers as I believe they teach it differently than it is taught in the UK. I'm considering travelling to Australia/NZ but it won't be for 6-12 months.

  8. #68
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    TBH I can't really see the point of such a notation system.

    As a tool for communicating basic move patterns between, say, teachers, I can see the use, but feel in this digital age, a simple vid clip would be far more efficient and useful.

    As a tool for the dance itself, I can't help feeling it completely misses the point. It's impossible (above a certain level) to notate any move without including the music (due to musicality differences), and even in the lowly world of MJ, it's not totally 'just about the moves'.
    This also makes such notation completely useless for judging purposes in competition IMO.

    It feels like something out of the eighties to me. A backward step.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 22nd-January-2009 at 12:19 PM.

  9. #69
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Yes I suppose that is really what is needed to try it out and test it for 6-12 months and see the changes. But before I start changing the way I teach modern jive, I want to talk to some Australian/NZ modern jive teachers
    If I were you, I'd speak to Robert Cordoba first. He's taught both here and in Oz, and AFAIK, he put a fair amount of effort trying to to start up MJ classes in the US. It's notable he was unsuccessful, and I dare say his resources are considerably greater than yours.

  10. #70
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    TBH I can't really see the point of such a notation system.

    As a tool for communicating basic move patterns between, say, teachers, I can see the use, but feel in this digital age, a simple vid clip would be far more efficient and useful...
    If you are a veteran genius choreographer in a wheelchair, and you want to communicate your latest masterpiece, a notation system could be just what you need.

    If you want to comminicate "he could have done this instead of that" in an email, a notation system could come in handy.

    A system that uses diagrams does not fit into the text world. In the adventure game world we were able, long ago, to type "fight elf" and the program was smart enough to know our character was equipped with an axe, fatigued, wearing magic shoes, and injured in the right leg and interpret "fight" accordingly. Similarly a dance description program could interpret "step forward" in light of the dance style being performed, the music, mood, and connection with partner.

  11. #71
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    They are 'Helpful Rules' but I guess they may not apply to every dance,
    To be honest, I'm not convinced they apply to any non-WCS dances...

    Which makes the "Universal" part of the name a bit optimistic

  12. #72
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Hmmm.
    Do you really think that changing a dance from being predominantly arm-led to being fully body-led can be done with only 'some slight changes'? You're talking about an area that most have a lot of problems with. This is far from easy to learn or to teach.
    Agree. I reckon I spent my first 10 years in MJ predominantly arm-leading.

  13. #73
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    If you are a veteran genius choreographer in a wheelchair, and you want to communicate your latest masterpiece, a notation system could be just what you need.
    Just how many working veteran genius choreographers do you know ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    If you want to comminicate "he could have done this instead of that" in an email, a notation system could come in handy.
    A vid would be better. A picture is worth a thousand words and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    A system that uses diagrams does not fit into the text world. In the adventure game world we were able, long ago, to type "fight elf" and the program was smart enough to know our character was equipped with an axe, fatigued, wearing magic shoes, and injured in the right leg and interpret "fight" accordingly. Similarly a dance description program could interpret "step forward" in light of the dance style being performed, the music, mood, and connection with partner.
    Crikey, I wouldn't like to attempt to program such a dance description program. The number of variables just in your list is almost infinite.

  14. #74
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    A vid would be better. A picture is worth a thousand words and all that.
    A teaching video in conjunction with the documentation I think would work...but not a video on its own. It's something I might look at doing...

  15. #75
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    ...Crikey, I wouldn't like to attempt to program such a dance description program. The number of variables just in your list is almost infinite.
    & dream on ... It would need teams of programmers working over decades...

    ... but ...


  16. #76
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    The rules that modern jive doesn't adhere to include:

    1) There is no time when the feet should not be in a correct foot position. Every pattern has correct foot positions for every step. There are approx 5 foot positions:
    - 1st Foot Position: Feet Together...Heels touching. Toes slightly apart
    - 2nd Foot Position: Feet Directly Apart (Side Step)
    - 3rd Foot Position: Heel to instep
    - 4th Foot Position: Walking Step (Forward or Back)
    - 5th Foot Position: Toe to heel (Back heel released from the floor)

    With only a small number of foot positions, it's not hard to define what the correct foot positions are for each pattern.
    Most of MJ is based upon a walking step: I don't see how you can claim that it doesn't adhere to this rule. Sure there are some exceptions, but these will generally fall into the other foot positions as much as they do in WCS.

    The fact that they are taught as "step back" and not taught as "4th position" just makes it more accessible; it removes the terminology and reverts to straight forward english that everyone can understand... rather than cards, systems, positions and terms that need taught along side the dance.

    2) All Moves/Patterns (amalgamations/routines) should begin at the beginning of a phrase
    A 'true' MJ dance has no moves/patterns other than what the dances put together. Phrasing of the music and trying to matching this with the dance is what makes it a dance. So to say MJ does not follow this rule is saying MJ has no musicality. Which I disagree with.

    You could also argue that any dance danced without "musicality" is not dancing that dance; you could point the finger at WCS as easily as MJ.

    3) The Centre Point of Balance (CPB) is the driving force and receiving foot, (action and reaction) that creates the look of oneness. The man's lead should be an extension of his own CPB. Leverage is not achieved by pushing, pulling, heel of the hand, fingertips etc. but by the natural movement of his own CPB
    MJ is lead and follow. leading from the core is part of lead and follow. This is contained within MJ. As are hand leads. To say MJ is not a 'proper' dance because it incorporates more than one way to do something is just silly.

    Modern Jive (from what I've seen, although I believe it's taught differently in Australia/NZ) is an arm led dance, where as it should be taught as a body led dance.
    "should be" taught in one way? So all the current teachers are teaching it incorrectly? Have you ever wondered why it's taught as it is?

    4) All dance (social dance in particular) contains some degree of vertical movement (what appears to the untrained eye horizontal movement is actually vertical movement that has been stretched out. The press into the floor that creates the body projection is the same press to move upward as it is to move outward. The degree of movement in a particular direction determines the amount of visible movement.
    ?? So MJ does not contain this? You've just said that all dance contains it except MJ?

    5) Isolate the basic movement of each dance before attempting to do the pattern.
    Have you seen any basic MJ moves taught without breaking the routine down into moves, and the moves into counts?

    6) All dance patterns (with exception of waltz) will consist of an even number of beats
    I can't quite understand how you think MJ does not fall within this criteria?

    7) Counting the beats correctly
    It is counted on 'counts' rather than beats because that's the basic unit of measurement and step. It is counted correctly - for MJ.

    8) Start the dance on the downbeat
    MJ is not a proper dance because it starts on whatever beat the dancers feel like? It's only started once; during the dance 'up beats' and 'down beats' are emphasised however the dancers want them to be.

    It's not too difficult to make some slight changes to the way modern jive is taught to fix the above.
    "fix"? What needs fixed?

  17. #77
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    1,895
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I'm doing full Golden State Dance Teachers Association (GSDTA) teacher training and I am now going to start teaching using Skippy Blair's Universal Unit System(R).

    I also talked at length with Skippy Blair about the teaching of Modern Jive and how it could be improved and a number of areas were identified.

    I'm looking at documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System(R) and then start teaching Modern Jive using the Universal Unit System(R). .
    Tck..Tck..Tck..

    What's that Skippy, MJ's fallen in the crapper and needs pulling out?

    Tck..Tck..Tck..

    There's no structure to it you say and it needs rescuing for the good of all mankind?

    Tck..Tck..Tck..

    It needs adapting with that special Universal Unit System you've got hidden in your pouch?



    It's an entry level, freeform dance style with a very basic structure and therefore is pretty much accessible by everyone. That's why it's so successful...
    Last edited by Rocky; 22nd-January-2009 at 04:31 PM.

  18. #78
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    York
    Posts
    5,203
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's an entry level, freeform dance style with a very basic structure and therefore is pretty much accessible by everyone. That's why it's so successful...
    Maybe ... thats how it STARTS ..... but there are some, maybe only 10% or so, who do want to take it further. T&C, footwork, styling etc are all things with structure that some MJers aspire to. If dancers want that, then don't teachers have a responsibility to move up a level and learn how to teach this? Just because Ceroc don't address this need (AFAIK) it doesn't mean that this need doesn't exist.

    Whether a series of dots and dashes will help that is another story ........

  19. #79
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Yes I suppose that is really what is needed to try it out and test it for 6-12 months and see the changes. But before I start changing the way I teach modern jive, I want to talk to some Australian/NZ modern jive teachers as I believe they teach it differently than it is taught in the UK.
    For the third (and probably final) time, if you have any specific questions I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability.

    I don't feel particularly inclined to just waffle at length and just hope someone actually wants to read what I have to say.

  20. #80
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    For the third (and probably final) time, if you have any specific questions I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability.
    Well - even if Alan won't, I'll take you up on this one - mainly because I'm genuinely curious. Is body-leading taught as the standard leading technique in NZ MJ?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Modern Jive Teacher For Spain
    By dancer in forum test messages
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11th-September-2006, 02:27 AM
  2. Modern Jive January workshop
    By Basil Brush (Forum Plant) in forum Social events
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 25th-January-2003, 02:24 PM
  3. Timing in Modern Jive
    By DavidB in forum Intermediate Corner
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 4th-September-2002, 04:14 PM
  4. New Modern Jive Night In Fife ?
    By Stubob in forum Social events
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 24th-July-2002, 01:02 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •