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Thread: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

  1. #21
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Ah, found it. It's in this thread:
    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=6703

    And the exact quote was:



    I never did get an answer to my "how's this rating system work then?" question...
    Yes GSDTA define 4 levels. Modern Jive is level 1, WCS is level 2

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    This system has been defined and works for all social partner dancers (e.g. ballroom, tango, cha cha, rumba, shim sham, etc).
    Point of order - the shim sham is not a 'social partner dance'. It's a tap routine, some versions of which are used by Lindy hoppers as a stroll.

    With the example notation that you gave - are you saying that a pair of dancers who could dance WCS, and who were familiar with the notation, but didn't know that particular move, could work out everything they need to do the move properly from that one card? Or is it simply a sophisticated memory aid?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Point of order - the shim sham is not a 'social partner dance'. It's a tap routine, some versions of which are used by Lindy hoppers as a stroll.

    With the example notation that you gave - are you saying that a pair of dancers who could dance WCS, and who were familiar with the notation, but didn't know that particular move, could work out everything they need to do the move properly from that one card? Or is it simply a sophisticated memory aid?
    That's true shim sham is not a social partner dance, but the system has been defined for it. I have a video & a book on it.

    The cards that are used in the class only show the rhythm pattern. The rest is used by the teacher for recording the move/pattern. Teachers could work out everything (depending on how detailed it is recorded) they need to do the move properly.

    The same notation is used no matter what style of dance you are teaching (that's why it's called universal).

  4. #24
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I understand where you are coming from with this DF (and can probably even identify those whom you target) but I don't believe that a person's attitude and behaviour on and off a dancefloor is necessarily reflective of the style of dance they choose.
    Well, I'm certainly not saying it's all WCS dancers (or even that many), but the phenomenon certainly exists (and I very much doubt you'd be aware of the main cases I'm thinking about, which shows that if it brings people to your mind it's somewhat widespread).

    Why WCS in particular? Because WCS is a fairly 'universal' dance; there's a lot of music you can WCS to in some fashion or other. You then get WCS people saying "I've danced to Rumba music, I must be able to give advice on Rumba timing."

    Now to some extent, the same thing could apply with MJ. It's just that anyone who talks about MJ in wider circles soon becomes familiar (metaphorically) with that football chant: "You're sh1t and you know you are!", so is unlikely to be quite so presumptuous. (Nor will they likely know about "Universal Unit Systems").

    However I do think there's an interesting underlying issue around the universal nature and transferability of timing & lead/follow skills between different dance styles. I know that ballroom/latin dancing is often dismissed as lacking musicality by those untutored in those styles, a claim summarily dismissed by those with experience in ballroom/latin.
    Chatting with a couple of people with reasonably high ballroom skills, my impression is that 'musicality' is very different in the two disciplines. Most MJ dancers don't notice (or care) that most people look exactly the same whatever the style of music they're dancing to. Most ballroom dancers could care less about hitting the next break. ('Most' being a somewhat vague term in both cases).

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Although, actually, I'm more curious to hear more about these rules that "apply to all partner dances" but "which modern jive does not adhere to".


    Any progress on this one?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post


    Any progress on this one?
    I have all the rules defined in a book, I just need to look at it. I'm not at home right now, I'll answer that question when I get home later this evening.

  7. #27
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Obviously not familiar with the "WCS is such a fundamental lead follow dance that once you've learned it, you are instantly a world class expert on ballroom, latin, etc..." theory.
    Obviously

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    This system has been defined and works for all social partner dancers (e.g. ballroom, tango, cha cha, rumba, shim sham, etc).
    Cool. Where's it defined then? Presumably there's a site or something? Do any other non-Skippy organisations use it?

    (I'm dying to see how it applies to AT... )

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Over 2000 teachers use it for different dances. It hasn't been defined 'yet' for modern jive but I'm working on it.
    Good luck, sounds like a task...

  8. #28
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    With the example notation that you gave - are you saying that a pair of dancers who could dance WCS, and who were familiar with the notation, but didn't know that particular move, could work out everything they need to do the move properly from that one card? Or is it simply a sophisticated memory aid?
    I can dance WCS and I can't make head nor tail of the notation for the Whip. That says nothing about the system and a lot about my ability to understand it. I also had the same problem looking at some similar jive stuff on Jiveaholic and After-Five(?) when I started MJ. Dance patterns written down in this way are just not comprehensible to me.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Yes GSDTA define 4 levels. Modern Jive is level 1, WCS is level 2
    Got a link for where this is defined?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Dance patterns written down in this way are just not comprehensible to me.
    Me neither. And anyway, there's already literally dozens of notation forms, including:


    So, I can't help thinking that of all the things we need in the world right now, another dance notation method is not high on the list.

    I applaud any effort to bring structure and definition of Modern Jive. But I'm cynical as to how using one school-specific notation method can help.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Me neither. And anyway, there's already literally dozens of notation forms, including:

    So, I can't help thinking that of all the things we need in the world right now, another dance notation method is not high on the list.

    I applaud any effort to bring structure and definition of Modern Jive. But I'm cynical as to how using one school-specific notation method can help.
    It's an interesting statistic that approx 80% of the people who win the competitions are trained with this system!

    Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count. You need about 9 things to make it work (rolling count being one of them).

  12. #32
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    It's an interesting statistic that approx 80% of the people who win the competitions are trained with this system!.
    Which competitions?

    West Coast Swing ones, I assume?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count. You need about 9 things to make it work (rolling count being one of them).
    Or just a hang glider and a cliff.

  14. #34
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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count. You need about 9 things to make it work (rolling count being one of them).
    I'd have said that was an opinion not a fact. I don't think many sprinters use a rolling count. I'd also contend that rolling count is a count based around body flight (or around continuous motion) rather than vice versa but, hey, I have never met Skippy so what do I know?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count.
    Another interesting fact is that if you search dance-forums.com (a site with a lot of fairly serious ballroom dancers, including a few pros), for the term "body flight" you get over 300 references.

    If you search for "body flight" "rolling count", you get 1 (and that one hit is only describing the terms as jargon, so not exactly relevant).

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Well...it would give the dance better structure, there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to), the use of unit cards can allow students to learn faster.

    I also believe Ceroc applied to have Modern Jive recognised for competitions from the World Swing Dance Council, but you can't judge a dance that has no structure! and you can't ratify the teaching of a dance that has no structure!!
    Would this imply that if I do my first moves slightly different from the documented standard, I'd get marked down by the judges?

    That's not a dance competition I'd ever want to take part in.

    Modern Jive is fun *because* it is unstructured. There are no right or wrong ways of doing any moves, beyond the golden rule: don't injure anybody.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Personally I would be wary of defining any of the moves as rigidly as ballroom does: every variation then becomes "wrong" - it becomes about moves rather than movements.

    Why do we need a uniform way to 'write down' a move across all teachers? The writing of moves is only useful as a communication device - and as far as I know, Ceroc have the bible (with an on-line version including video footage I think) to share moves and give a uniform face to Ceroc's brand of MJ.
    There is the after5 and jive-o-holic web sites. There are countless youtube clips. There are forums and chat-rooms. Every beginner invents their own notational style to jot down moves (that works for them)...

    Is one more style of writing stuff down helpful to anyone else but the person writing it?

  18. #38
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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    It's an interesting statistic that approx 80% of the people who win the competitions are trained with this system!
    It’s an interesting fact that in competitive endeavors of any sort, the best people have usually undergone training and development in some logical and progressive system.

    In West Coast Swing, Skippy Blair has a virtual monopoly on that, but not necessarily because her system is so much better than anyone elses. As long as it’s been sensibly constructed and refined virtually any system will do, but Skippy got there first and there’s little to be gained by anyone re-inventing the wheel to make a new one and then going into competition with her.

    I think a much more interesting question is what the other 20% you're refering to are doing differently, and why that works for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count. You need about 9 things to make it work (rolling count being one of them).
    Much as Robd has pointed out, I think you’re putting the cart in front of the horse here. There are plenty of people in other disciplines who have fantastic body flight and have never heard of a rolling count. Presumably they don’t consider rolling count to be a critical aspect of body flight.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Although, actually, I'm more curious to hear more about these rules that "apply to all partner dances" but "which modern jive does not adhere to".
    Seconded, and still waiting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    You can go into as much detail as you want. The main things that you need to record are the weight transfers (represented as dots), you can also have / for no weight transfer and circle for hops.

    You also want to want to record direction and foot positions (1st, 2nd, closed 3rd, open 3rd, 4th, 5th, crossed, etc).

    you can also then add as much additional information as you want, e.g. the type of turn, direction of the turn, hand positions etc. For example if you want to represent a hand change, then you use that in the name of the move e.g. hand change starter step or left side pass w/hand change.

    [i]plus some images of the system notation[i]
    That’s all great for what it is – a system of sheet dancing. It’s a useful aid to teachers and presumably to some students as well. It’s a looooong way from being some sort of holy grail though.

    Thanks to my compulsory music education in high school I can still do a reasonable job of reading sheet music and having an idea of what is supposed to be going on. I can’t, however, play a single note on a real instrument. The sheet “music” is bloody useful as a memory aid, especially for a teacher who needs to be able to repeat the footwork exactly time and time again. As a dancer, my experience is that written descriptions of physical movement are very difficult to understand.

    Of course, it was a teacher trainers course you were taking – not a dancers training course. It might pay for you to think about the difference between the two here.

    On an unrelated but relevant note; the notation works really well for a swing dance with relatively complicated timing of the triples and an emphasis on varying syncopations. I expect that for MJ, with double time footwork (according the UUS description at least – although it doesn’t seem particularly intuitive to me) virtually the entire time for both partners, it’s probably overkill. Obviously that might not matter if only teachers are going to look at it, but my understanding is that you expect everyone to.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Obviously not familiar with the "WCS is such a fundamental lead follow dance that once you've learned it, you are instantly a world class expert on ballroom, latin, etc..." theory.
    Well, I know I am. I can’t speak for anyone else. Unless they’re a ballroom or latin dancer of course, because then I know more than them anyway and they should just shut up and listen to me.

    It’s lonely at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Is one more style of writing stuff down helpful to anyone else but the person writing it?
    Actually, there is a pretty good argument for having a standardized system of notation. Imagine how much easier it’d be describing how rolling count works with just a simple picture rather writing 1&a2&a3&……. , and then having to explain what the & and a mean every time someone new comes into the conversation.

    The thing is – it almost doesn’t matter how good the system is if nobody else uses it. It’s a communication tool, which means it’s only good if someone else understands it (and you want to talk to them). At the moment we have thousands of teachers across many companies over the whole world who are quite happy not using one, and Alan Doyle trying to define an entire system single-handed so he can be the only one who uses it.

    A noble goal I’ll grant you, but I do question the practicality…..
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 21st-January-2009 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Horse. Carts. logical progression. Realizing I should probably put them in the wrong order if I want to make my point.....

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    It's an interesting statistic that approx 80% of the people who win the competitions are trained with this system!

    Another interesting fact is that you can't achieve body flight without rolling count. You need about 9 things to make it work (rolling count being one of them).
    It's also interesting to note how easy it is to deflect awkward questions by completely changing the subject.

    However - I'm inclined to bite on this one. Having absolutely no idea what 'body flight' refers to (in dance terms), I hit Google - and came up with the following from www.dancedictionary.com:

    Involves movement and styling to the music. In its ultimate form, it is the reality of a dancer or dancers moving to the music as one mind and body (dancer & music) - all movements are fluid motions. When you are referring to the top dancers, a great deal of their dancing is executed at a meditative level wherein the dancer or dancers, the music and the dance floor, are the only things that exist in the world at that time. They are carving out their own universe.
    So... are you saying that this is not achievable in ... oh ... let's say AT? Which, I believe, has no need whatsoever for a rolling count (although DB might correct me on that one )?

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    Re: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    This has never been done before and I would like to talk to any modern jive teachers about it...in particular MJ teachers from Australia/New Zealand as it's taught differently there than it is in the UK.
    I'm not a MJ teacher, but I'm probably the most active Kiwi on here. Did you have any specific questions?

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