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Thread: Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

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    Documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    Just how did the training in the states go by the way?
    I've just come back from California. I've had a fantastic time and I'm planning my next trip back!

    I did West Coast Swing teacher training with:
    Skippy Blair (Founder of GSDTA & Director of the World Swing Dance Council)
    Mary-Ann Nunez (GSDTA)
    Jessica Cox (GSDTA)
    Sarah Grusmark (GSDTA)
    Sonny Watson & Deanna Mollman

    Skippy Blair is brilliant and I feel privilaged to have the opportunity to have private tuition with her as I believe she doesn't very often give private tuition anymore.

    I'm doing full Golden State Dance Teachers Association (GSDTA) teacher training and I am now going to start teaching using Skippy Blair's Universal Unit System(R).

    I also talked at length with Skippy Blair about the teaching of Modern Jive and how it could be improved and a number of areas were identified.

    I'm looking at documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System(R) and then start teaching Modern Jive using the Universal Unit System(R).

    This has never been done before and I would like to talk to any modern jive teachers about it...in particular MJ teachers from Australia/New Zealand as it's taught differently there than it is in the UK.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I'm looking at documenting Modern Jive Moves/Patterns using the Universal Unit System(R) and then start teaching Modern Jive using the Universal Unit System(R).
    Not that I have the slightest clue what this means, but... awesome!

    What exactly does it mean?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Not that I have the slightest clue what this means, but... awesome!

    What exactly does it mean?
    The Universal Unit System(R) developed by Skippy Blair, is 'sheet music for dancers', it used to document a dance a full system for teaching it.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    The Universal Unit System(R) developed by Skippy Blair, is 'sheet music for dancers', it used to document a dance a full system for teaching it.
    Cool. What are the benefits of bringing this into the MJ world?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Cool. What are the benefits of bringing this into the MJ world?
    Well...it would give the dance better structure, there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to), the use of unit cards can allow students to learn faster.

    I also believe Ceroc applied to have Modern Jive recognised for competitions from the World Swing Dance Council, but you can't judge a dance that has no structure! and you can't ratify the teaching of a dance that has no structure!!

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Well...it would give the dance better structure, there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to), the use of unit cards can allow students to learn faster.
    Out of curiosity, what rules are those?
    Also - are there any example unit cards that can be viewed online? I'm curious to know what information they are able to convey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I also believe Ceroc applied to have Modern Jive recognised for competitions from the World Swing Dance Council, but you can't judge a dance that has no structure! and you can't ratify the teaching of a dance that has no structure!!
    I'd argue the point that MJ has no structure - and I don't see why you can't judge a structureless dance, but at the end of the day, I do agree that a properly formalised dance is going to be a lot easier to judge.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    there are certain rules that apply to all partner dances (some of which modern jive does not adhere to)
    obviously not all partner dances then.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Also - are there any example unit cards that can be viewed online? I'm curious to know what information they are able to convey.
    This is an example of double triple triple rhythm using rolling count. A dot tells you when to step.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat
    Also - are there any example unit cards that can be viewed online? I'm curious to know what information they are able to convey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    This is an example of double triple triple rhythm using rolling count. A dot tells you when to step.
    Is that it? 'Cos that certainly doesn't look worthy of all the hype.

    Although, actually, I'm more curious to hear more about these rules that "apply to all partner dances" but "which modern jive does not adhere to".

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    This is an example of double triple triple rhythm using rolling count. A dot tells you when to step.
    OK.... which is great so far as it goes, but that's the easy bit. How does one represent things like the shape of the move, the way it's led, body positioning, arm position, weight transfer, any required tension & compression / conterbalance etc, non-standard stuff like the arm transfer in ... um ... (I forget the MJ name - in Lindy it's called the Texas Tommy, and it looks like this) and so on and so forth?

    OK - so maybe that's asking for way too much detail, so the question really is: can it convey any of that?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    OK.... which is great so far as it goes, but that's the easy bit. How does one represent things like the shape of the move, the way it's led, body positioning, arm position, weight transfer, any required tension & compression / conterbalance etc, non-standard stuff like the arm transfer in ... um ... (I forget the MJ name - in Lindy it's called the Texas Tommy, and it looks like this) and so on and so forth?

    OK - so maybe that's asking for way too much detail, so the question really is: can it convey any of that?
    You can go into as much detail as you want. The main things that you need to record are the weight transfers (represented as dots), you can also have / for no weight transfer and circle for hops.

    You also want to want to record direction and foot positions (1st, 2nd, closed 3rd, open 3rd, 4th, 5th, crossed, etc).

    you can also then add as much additional information as you want, e.g. the type of turn, direction of the turn, hand positions etc. For example if you want to represent a hand change, then you use that in the name of the move e.g. hand change starter step or left side pass w/hand change.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    You can go into as much detail as you want. The main things that you need to record are the weight transfers (represented as dots), you can also have / for no weight transfer and circle for hops.

    You also want to want to record direction and foot positions (1st, 2nd, closed 3rd, open 3rd, 4th, 5th, crossed, etc).

    you can also then add as much additional information as you want, e.g. the type of turn, direction of the turn, hand positions etc. For example if you want to represent a hand change, then you use that in the name of the move e.g. hand change starter step or left side pass w/hand change.
    The attachment shows the annotation for a closed (basket) whip for WCS101 competition.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    The Universal Unit System(R) developed by Skippy Blair, is 'sheet music for dancers', it used to document a dance a full system for teaching it.
    Has it been used with other dances then?

    Because, and call me a skeptical skeptic on this one, I'm a bit suspicious about a "Universal Unit System" designed by one specialist...

    In fact, haven't we had this discussion before? I dimly recall something like this a couple of years ago.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    A dot tells you when to step.
    Maybe this lady will be Alan's demo for his revolutionary new MJ classes?


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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    In fact, haven't we had this discussion before? I dimly recall something like this a couple of years ago.
    Ah, found it. It's in this thread:
    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=6703

    And the exact quote was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brady View Post
    For example, there is a rating system for dances in terms of their difficulty level. Salsa is typically considered a 1 (lower the number, the easier) because it only has single and double rhythm footwork. Swing dances tend to start at a 2 (given they work off of the triple rhythm footwork) and progress up the scale depending on what footwork patterns are being introduced (i.e. delayed synchopated doubles, etc.). I would think that how difficult a dance is to teach can be related to the level of the dance.
    I never did get an answer to my "how's this rating system work then?" question...

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Because, and call me a skeptical skeptic on this one, I'm a bit suspicious about a "Universal Unit System" designed by one specialist...
    Obviously not familiar with the "WCS is such a fundamental lead follow dance that once you've learned it, you are instantly a world class expert on ballroom, latin, etc..." theory.

    [If that sounds snarky, I can only assume you haven't witnessed as many 'intermediate' level WCS dancers lecturing competition ballroom dancers about timing and lead/follow as I have].

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Question for David Franklin & anyone else with the knowledge:

    Is there a high level programming language for movement, perhaps used in the Video games industry, that could be adapted as the basis for one specifying choreography?

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Has it been used with other dances then?

    Because, and call me a skeptical skeptic on this one, I'm a bit suspicious about a "Universal Unit System" designed by one specialist...

    In fact, haven't we had this discussion before? I dimly recall something like this a couple of years ago.
    This system has been defined and works for all social partner dancers (e.g. ballroom, tango, cha cha, rumba, shim sham, etc). Over 2000 teachers use it for different dances. It hasn't been defined 'yet' for modern jive but I'm working on it.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Question for David Franklin & anyone else with the knowledge:

    Is there a high level programming language for movement, perhaps used in the Video games industry, that could be adapted as the basis for one specifying choreography?
    Not that I'm aware of but I guess it could be developed. I use 3D Studio Max & OpenGL For doing animation.

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    Re: Knowing your partners foot/weight/placing...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Obviously not familiar with the "WCS is such a fundamental lead follow dance that once you've learned it, you are instantly a world class expert on ballroom, latin, etc..." theory.

    [If that sounds snarky, I can only assume you haven't witnessed as many 'intermediate' level WCS dancers lecturing competition ballroom dancers about timing and lead/follow as I have].
    I understand where you are coming from with this DF (and can probably even identify those whom you target) but I don't believe that a person's attitude and behaviour on and off a dancefloor is necessarily reflective of the style of dance they choose. A self-aggrandising know-it-all is simply that. However I do think there's an interesting underlying issue around the universal nature and transferability of timing & lead/follow skills between different dance styles. I know that ballroom/latin dancing is often dismissed as lacking musicality by those untutored in those styles, a claim summarily dismissed by those with experience in ballroom/latin.

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