View Poll Results: Are you going to the UK WCS Champs 2009?

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Thread: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

  1. #41
    Registered User DS87's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Many interesting points have been raised regarding the number of divisions and the qualifying criteria. I wonder if these points and been previously thought of and disregarded by Jive Addiction or whether now they have come to light they will improve the situation.

    Currently Jive Addiction have been the only organisation that has taken the risk in putting together a dedicated WCS competition and event and they deserve a lot of credit for doing so . However, if they fail to see the concerns of the WCS community they will quickly see the event being ignored if a different organisation see an opportunity and moves in.

  2. #42
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I think the introduction of points possibly gives more issues than benefits.
    I would certainly not go as far as saying that: yes it raises certain questions to make sure that the system is valid and fair, but overall I see that as a huge benefit, both in terms of the visibility of the UK dance scene, and to help UK dancers to get their points to compete in the right division in the US (i.e. that people like Geordieed or DS87 have to compete in Novice in the US is wrong, IMO).


    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    But I do agree with Paul F (even though I have yet to go to the States so could be talking cr*p) that the divisions are not comparable.
    Again, I think this is not as clear cut as this. Having done 10 events in the US now, I would say that the UK Novice division is cartainly on a par with the US, and there would be enough dancers to make a perfectly reasonable Intermediate division as well (see list of dancers by FF).
    We are often biaised because we tend to attend the larger events where comp is extremely fierce, but a number of dancers in 'intermediate' and 'Advanced' in the US have qualified at very small events and their dancing isn't really a reflection of the division they're in, tbh. It isn't a perfect system.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    If you are going to introduce a US points system then I belive you have to also introduce the same criteria for entry to divisions as you might have in the States (or does this differ event by event over there?).
    The rules in the States are very simple: you compete in the division you are qualified for (i.e. have enough points for), or you petition up/down. Usually pros can help bump you up (i.e. Maxence and Olivier Massart started at intermediate level and not Novice, so did Paul W).


    Regarding the JA rules, I think that giving a time-based criteria (i.e. danced wcs for over 2 or 3 years) is probably not a good criteria in this country, given that some people may only dance every few months. I'd say that anyone should be able to register for Novice, except if:
    - they teach or have taught wcs
    - they have qualified out of Novice in the US
    - they have been finalists in the Open category last year

    The fact that people may have placed at other comps is not relevant IMO, as US rules will require that you prove consistency of placement in several comps (i.e. the 20 points to qualify out of Novice).

    I'd also say that people like DS87 and others who are still in Novice in the US for lack of competitions should be able to enter Open if they choose so (and gain intermediate points if they place, which would allow them to dance intermediate in the US if they wish). People with no track records of comps should be allowed to petition up as well (can't think of anyone just now as the likes of Naomi and Kirsty have been finalists in the Open last year), the head judge being the final decision maker.


    I don't know how feasible it is, and credits to JA for listening to us, but if they were to 'skimm off' the Open from the US Advanced dancers (Paul, Cat, Lee, Rachel McE, Olivier M if he comes) to make an invitational (I can't imagine that would last more than 20 min, there aren't that many couples), that would allow them to award Intermediate points in the Open. It seems like the fairest way to do things, to be honest.

    Does it sound reasonable ?

  3. #43
    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Could someone list how the points system works in the states, for those of us that haven't competed, been to the states, and have no bloody idea what happens! I personally have danced WCS for about 3-4 years. Which would exclude me from the novice competition, going by Johnah's post (not that I'm actually interested in competing). This, as Caro says, wouldn't be a fair ruling. I'm sure, like me, there are people that have danced WCS for as long, but only go to the odd WCS freestyle or have odd WCS dances at Jive events.

  4. #44
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    Could someone list how the points system works in the states, for those of us that haven't competed, been to the states, and have no bloody idea what happens!
    In a nutshell: there are up to 5 divisions in the US JnJ. Points are tracked nationally for 3 of them: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (and recorded for the others cat such as Newcomer, Allstars, Champions). You can only compete in the division for which you have qualified.
    After 20 novice points, you are allowed to dance Intermediate.
    After 25 Intermediate points (incl. a win), you are allowed to dance Advanced.
    Those are national rules. Events make up their own rules for Allstar (typically 40 advanced points) and Champions.

    In a comps, points are allocated as such (they in fact varie depending on the number of entrants, or tier of the comp, but I'm keeping it simple here):
    - 1st place: 10
    - 2nd: 8
    - 3rd: 6
    - 4th: 4
    - 5th: 2
    finalists up to 10th: 1

    The fastest way to get out of Novice still involves winning twice (or getting twice 2nd at major comps where you get 10 points), only Steve H has managed that to my knowledge (and everybody's astonishment ). For the rest of us, it can take a lot of comps to get all those points (remember often there are 100 followers in Novice... getting in the first 5 is a bit of an achievement).

    Full rules and explanations on the WSDC website.

  5. #45
    Registered User FoxyFunkster's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    I don't know how feasible it is, and credits to JA for listening to us, but if they were to 'skimm off' the Open from the US Advanced dancers (Paul, Cat, Lee, Rachel McE, Olivier M if he comes) to make an invitational (I can't imagine that would last more than 20 min, there aren't that many couples), that would allow them to award Intermediate points in the Open. It seems like the fairest way to do things, to be honest.

    Does it sound reasonable ?[/quote]


  6. #46
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    I'm listening, some very good points being made. All will be considered.

  7. #47
    Registered User FunkyAngel's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post

    Regarding the JA rules, I think that giving a time-based criteria (i.e. danced wcs for over 2 or 3 years) is probably not a good criteria in this country, given that some people may only dance every few months. I'd say that anyone should be able to register for Novice, except if:
    - they teach or have taught wcs
    - they have qualified out of Novice in the US
    - they have been finalists in the Open category last year

    People with no track records of comps should be allowed to petition up as well (can't think of anyone just now as the likes of Naomi and Kirsty have been finalists in the Open last year), the head judge being the final decision maker.
    It does sound like the best way of keeping it in sync with the US competitions but it is likely to leave a huge novice class. I'm not even sure the teaching restriction is valid and I think it's unclear on the status of of people that demo for lessons - it's especially unclear for some of the overseas dancers.

    Whatever the system I think it is really important to allow for a petitioning system and/or some judges discretion in moving people up. It's going to be difficult to get the classes right if we get lots of the French or Russian westies over, a lot of them are very good dancers and a good proportion of them have no US points.

    Just thinking of the French dancer Virginie who was over last weekend - you could argue she can dance newcomer (no points, been dancing WCS 6 months). Otoh, she does demo with Maxime so you could say she'd be in the Intermediate/Open because she sort of teaches. Or you could watch her dancing and suggest she'd be an interesting wildcard in the invitational (only half-joking). Maybe have some judges additions to the invitational based on their opinions from watching the first night of freestyle?

    FunkyAngel

  8. #48
    Registered User DS87's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by johnah View Post
    I'm listening, some very good points being made. All will be considered.
    Just another point to consider (and apologies if you have already done so); I remember in the previous events the J&J competition was gender balanced and due to more women than men this led to several ladies missing out. I noticed in the states that they never do this and they always have extra ladies (often over 40 extra in the large novice competitions). They just get some of the men to dance again and this means that everyone who wants to compete can. I am sure that if Jive Addiction did the same they would not only ease their stress at trying to balance the comp but also get more competitiors and make lots of women happy.

    Just a thought, hope it helps.

  9. #49
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by johnah View Post
    I'm listening, some very good points being made. All will be considered.
    Well, I just sent off my cheque I then checked the website for the comp rules and structure and am not seeing a lot that is different beyond the novice exclusion now being 3 years of regular social dancing rather than 2. I appreciate that 'considered' does not equal 'actioned' so I do wonder if any of the suggestions will be acted upon. I wholeheartedly endorse Steve's one below:

    Quote Originally Posted by DS87 View Post
    ...in the previous events the J&J competition was gender balanced and due to more women than men this led to several ladies missing out. I noticed in the states that they never do this and they always have extra ladies (often over 40 extra in the large novice competitions). They just get some of the men to dance again and this means that everyone who wants to compete can.

  10. #50
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I wholeheartedly endorse Steve's one below:
    As far as I could see, Rob, the way they rotated the extra women in at Brean seemed to work.

  11. #51
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Just had a closer look at the rules... it looks like there will only be WSDC points awarded in Novice.
    May be next year we can have intermediate as well...


    And yes I agree with what's been said above re numbers of followers and leaders in comp: it doesn't matter, the extra partners can be rotated. It would be silly IMO to limit / force the number of entries to try and make even numbers. Robert Royston is used to dealing with that, that will be no problem at all, he'll have us all sorted out on the floor.

  12. #52
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    I've heard of this competition from a couple of people that I met back in Feb London/Skegness.

    Seeing as I'm a WCS beginner, and am unlikely to have the confidence/desire(?) to compete, is it still worthwhile to go to, say workshops or other non-competition activities apart from being an audience member and watching the competitors?

  13. #53
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieJ View Post
    I've heard of this competition from a couple of people that I met back in Feb London/Skegness.

    Seeing as I'm a WCS beginner, and am unlikely to have the confidence/desire(?) to compete, is it still worthwhile to go to, say workshops or other non-competition activities apart from being an audience member and watching the competitors?
    I went to the first year of this event, and wasn't competing, but thought it far outstripped any weekender (or UK MJ comp event) that I have attended. But then I am not a huge fan of those big weekenders anyway.

    Not sure how WSM has developed since that first year, but I would highly recommend going for the workshops and social dancing. The competition is great to watch and cabarets awesome of course. I think it's a great overall package.

    Hope this helps.

    M

  14. #54
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Ooops. I lied. I did enter the J & J. Didn't get anywhere but didn't expect to. However I did draw a couple of really dodgy partners - some dude called Paul Warden, and another bloke called James Mc-something or other from Scotland.

    So it was worth it just for that. And as it's J & J I wasn't holding them back.

    M

  15. #55
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    As far as I could see, Rob, the way they rotated the extra women in at Brean seemed to work.
    Could it be the number of judges? Normally you have judges for leaders and Judges for followers. I believe there are only 3 judges this year, that would make it pretty much impossible to split it?

  16. #56
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by DS87 View Post
    Just another point to consider (and apologies if you have already done so); I remember in the previous events the J&J competition was gender balanced and due to more women than men this led to several ladies missing out. I noticed in the states that they never do this and they always have extra ladies (often over 40 extra in the large novice competitions). They just get some of the men to dance again and this means that everyone who wants to compete can. I am sure that if Jive Addiction did the same they would not only ease their stress at trying to balance the comp but also get more competitiors and make lots of women happy.

    Just a thought, hope it helps.
    I'm all for easing stress. It is feedback already taken onboard from last year's Champs and will be implemented in both the Newcomer and Novice J&J categories.

    For the first time this year, we are also introducing an 'Invitational J&J and a Team Cabaret competition.

    Entries for competitions to be received by 04 April please, particularly for the Classic, Showcase, Strictly Swing and Team Cabaret Divisions. Late entries may be accepted after this date subject to availability in the relevant category.

    For the J&J Division, it will be possible to enter right up to the close of registration on the Saturday [18 April].

  17. #57
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Could it be the number of judges? Normally you have judges for leaders and Judges for followers. I believe there are only 3 judges this year, that would make it pretty much impossible to split it?
    There will be 4 judges.

  18. #58
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by johnah View Post
    For the first time this year, we are also introducing an 'Invitational J&J
    that's awesome ! Does it mean we can get intermediate WSDC points for the Open ?

  19. #59
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    that's awesome ! Does it mean we can get intermediate WSDC points for the Open ?
    LOL..... the search for precious intermediate points continues.....

  20. #60
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    LOL..... the search for precious intermediate points continues.....
    lol.. says the one who sulks after a 5th place...

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