View Poll Results: Are you going to the UK WCS Champs 2009?

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Thread: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

  1. #21
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    hmmm... some good stuff with some alignment with NASDE rules which is good...

    However I'm afraid when it comes to WSDC points it doesn't seem feasible as stated... The only points that could be awarded in Open would be Avanced points (as many competitors in that division would not be allowed to dance under WSDC Novice points), when only a handful of dancers (in fact, 4: Paul W, Cat, Lee and Rachel McE) really qualify for that division. I doubt the WSDC would be willing to 'downgrade' their system like that and potentially award Advanced points to people who haven't qualified out of intermediate yet.

    I think the way forward would be:
    - Newcomer and Open: no WSDC points (newcomer isn't tracked and inconsistency of levels in Open - i.e. dancers who belong to Advanced, Intermediate, and even Novice because of some specific JA rules)
    - Novice: Novice points awarded. That's the only category for which it makes sense to award points.


    I'm afraid that until this is clarified and a clear reasoning provided, it will be just like last year, and no points whatsoever will be awarded. That would be a shame as the UK has notthing to blush about its Novice division...

    The UK-WCS Champs is evolving and each year it gets better as indeed, does the standard of WCS dancers. Have tried to align as closely as possible to US rules, but levels are different here.

    Fair point about the WSDC points though Caro, you may well be right about Novice points being awarded. Will reflect on it and may also have to reconsider the Novice J&J criteria.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    hmmm... some good stuff with some alignment with NASDE rules which is good...

    However I'm afraid when it comes to WSDC points it doesn't seem feasible as stated... The only points that could be awarded in Open would be Avanced points (as many competitors in that division would not be allowed to dance under WSDC Novice points), when only a handful of dancers (in fact, 4: Paul W, Cat, Lee and Rachel McE) really qualify for that division. I doubt the WSDC would be willing to 'downgrade' their system like that and potentially award Advanced points to people who haven't qualified out of intermediate yet.

    I think the way forward would be:
    - Newcomer and Open: no WSDC points (newcomer isn't tracked and inconsistency of levels in Open - i.e. dancers who belong to Advanced, Intermediate, and even Novice because of some specific JA rules)
    - Novice: Novice points awarded. That's the only category for which it makes sense to award points.


    I'm afraid that until this is clarified and a clear reasoning provided, it will be just like last year, and no points whatsoever will be awarded. That would be a shame as the UK has notthing to blush about its Novice division...
    Caro, I`m not agreeing with very much here i`m afraid, Firstly there are quite a few events in America either new events or existing small events where people dance above their division because the overall standard isn`t as strong as say a NASDE event yet they`ll still earn points above their real standard but they won`t really be beneficial until they progress to that division.
    .
    Also I really don`t see the WSDC having to downgrade the JnJ open final which is probably going to mainly consist of a the few UK advanced dancers mentioned, some good French Dancers, probably some Americans as well, and then when you also consider the people who are not ranked in the states mainly due to their lack of events competed at i`m thinking of Naomi Hulbert, Mel Boyle, Chelsea Rossiter, Caron Douglas, Rachel Martino, Kirsty Jelen, Edwin Smith, Paul Harris, Kevin Flynn, Of course not forgetting the current Intermediate qualified dancers, Graham Fox, Mikeyr, Amy Muncaster, Peter Fradley, Caro, Neil Crosbie, Sydney Smyth etc etc it looks like a very hot and competitive category.

    You also have to take into account if Weston does offer WSDC advanced points, then that in itself will attract better dancers. You may get Maxence Martin or Olivier Massart coming to compete, Having the UK WCS champs open JnJ without WSDC points is a less attractive proposition IMHO.

    One last point if you have novice points on offer for our novice category then the UK people who haven`t got out of Novice stateside may want to dance down and earn the Novice points on offer!! So i am not sure that is valid either.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by johnah View Post
    Fair point about the WSDC points though Caro, you may well be right about Novice points being awarded. Will reflect on it and may also have to reconsider the Novice J&J criteria.
    cool
    I do appreciate levels are different here, and some rules may need to be made to ensure a fair level of competition in novice, especially if points are awarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    [Also I really don`t see the WSDC having to downgrade the JnJ open final which is probably going to mainly consist of a the few UK advanced dancers mentioned, some good French Dancers, probably some Americans as well, and then when you also consider the people who are not ranked in the states mainly due to their lack of events ...
    Yes it might be possible to award Advanced points in the Open, and sure a few peeps do dance at that level... I'm just thinking that if we do pick up those advanced points by making finals, we will then have to petition to dance down in Intermediate in the US... I know for example I am not at that level yet and want to 'earn' my way up rather than be possibly lucky and pick up a point which would allow me to dance up.

    What's for sure is that it doesn't make any sense, and is probably not even possible under the WSDC rules, to award Novice points in Open.

    I guess if JA wants to prevent some more experienced folks to dance down in Novice (so that they get their points for future events in the US) then they have made up the right rules, i.e. teachers etc will have to dance in Open.

    As for attracting more experienced dancers, that is a good argument indeed... although I know Maxence won't be there (he'll be in Canada)... It sure would be great to have Olivier Massart, that would most certainly spice up the comp

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    cool
    I do appreciate levels are different here, and some rules may need to be made to ensure a fair level of competition in novice, especially if points are awarded.



    Yes it might be possible to award Advanced points in the Open, and sure a few peeps do dance at that level... I'm just thinking that if we do pick up those advanced points by making finals, we will then have to petition to dance down in Intermediate in the US... I know for example I am not at that level yet and want to 'earn' my way up rather than be possibly lucky and pick up a point which would allow me to dance up.

    What's for sure is that it doesn't make any sense, and is probably not even possible under the WSDC rules, to award Novice points in Open.

    I guess if JA wants to prevent some more experienced folks to dance down in Novice (so that they get their points for future events in the US) then they have made up the right rules, i.e. teachers etc will have to dance in Open.

    As for attracting more experienced dancers, that is a good argument indeed... although I know Maxence won't be there (he'll be in Canada)... It sure would be great to have Olivier Massart, that would most certainly spice up the comp
    Some more good points, what about this then,

    An Invitional JnJ: Which could include the American pro`s, Paul , Cat, Lee, Rachel Mc and other UK working Pro`s, This could be judged like some comps in the States by the competitiors themselves

    Intermediate JnJ: offering Intermediate Points
    Novice JnJ: Offering Novice Points
    Newcomer JnJ

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    what about this then,

    An Invitional JnJ: Which could include the American pro`s, Paul , Cat, Lee, Rachel Mc and other UK working Pro`s, This could be judged like some comps in the States by the competitiors themselves

    Intermediate JnJ: offering Intermediate Points
    Novice JnJ: Offering Novice Points
    Newcomer JnJ

    Now that would be really cool if the timetable permits. In addition, you get a proper show in the invitational JnJ, it's always been my favourite part of the US events
    And getting intermediate points seems absolutely fair now for the 'new' Open division (i.e. all outside of Novice, incl. teachers, minus qualified Advanced dancers).

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Now that would be really cool if the timetable permits. In addition, you get a proper show in the invitational JnJ, it's always been my favourite part of the US events
    And getting intermediate points seems absolutely fair now for the 'new' Open division (i.e. all outside of Novice, incl. teachers, minus qualified Advanced dancers).
    The only real difference is that we`d have an Inviational which may add 40 mins onto the schedule, but it would be a highlight for sure, I`d love to see the swing diego style seat laid out for the finals also, i believe it was done for the WCS champs the previous year......either way i`m sure it should be great

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Some more good points, what about this then,

    An Invitional JnJ: Which could include the American pro`s, Paul , Cat, Lee, Rachel Mc and other UK working Pro`s, This could be judged like some comps in the States by the competitiors themselves

    Intermediate JnJ: offering Intermediate Points
    Novice JnJ: Offering Novice Points
    Newcomer JnJ
    Why are we bothering so much about WSDC points in this country, fair to say a small minority of us compete in the US but the majority of WCS dancers in this country will not/ don't want to have that exposure. Why not develop a UK centric system ?

    On a personal note when competing, WSDC points are a secondary consideration, My primary focus is the the amateur tour "AANCE" the chance to compete against the best of my peers........ I'm just saying!

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Why are we bothering so much about WSDC points in this country, fair to say a small minority of us compete in the US but the majority of WCS dancers in this country will not/ don't want to have that exposure. Why not develop a UK centric system ?
    because there aren't enough large scale comps ? Who would administrate the system anyway ? And because it is not that small a minority getting to the US... I think if we can implement here the system that is the most widely used, there is no point in creating a sub-system that will have no credibility outside the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    On a personal note when competing, WSDC points are a secondary consideration, My primary focus is the the amateur tour "AANCE" the chance to compete against the best of my peers........ I'm just saying!
    I see your point but AANCE is even more marginal, it is only a subset of 10 (12?) WSDC events... How many people in AANCE Novice this year, 20 ish ? I know there were less than 20 followers in intermediate... Compare this to events like Swing Diego or BbB... I know which I'd rather win...

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    because there aren't enough large scale comps ? Who would administrate the system anyway ? And because it is not that small a minority getting to the US... I think if we can implement here the system that is the most widely used, there is no point in creating a sub-system that will have no credibility outside the UK.




    I see your point but AANCE is even more marginal, it is only a subset of 10 (12?) WSDC events... How many people in AANCE Novice this year, 20 ish ? I know there were less than 20 followers in intermediate... Compare this to events like Swing Diego or BbB... I know which I'd rather win...

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    because there aren't enough large scale comps ? Who would administrate the system anyway ? And because it is not that small a minority getting to the US... I think if we can implement here the system that is the most widely used, there is no point in creating a sub-system that will have no credibility outside the UK.
    How many of us are there that really compete in the US in percentage terms, 5% what about the other 95%..... why cant we do something to encourage them to compete against their peers in this country?

    As everybody who competes for WSDC points knows a win, is not necessarily a win, despite the tier system..... Or am I wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I see your point but AANCE is even more marginal, it is only a subset of 10 (12?) WSDC events... How many people in AANCE Novice this year, 20 ish ? I know there were less than 20 followers in intermediate... Compare this to events like Swing Diego or BbB... I know which I'd rather win...
    21 of the 21 AANCE events are WSDC events......

    Below is from Cher Peadon of AANCE.......

    "Over 200 dancers from 20 AANCE tour events, competed for the National Novice and Intermediate Championship titles."

    Houston(ACC) was the the finals AANCE which as stated above is the US national championships for Novice & Intermediate WCS dancers. Personally I was more than happy to qualify for the finals and even happier to have made it into the top 10 in the Strictly Swing. You were there, how would you rate the level of Novice & intermediate Competition?

    I still say what is wrong with us coming up with something for the UK WCS community ??

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    I wish JA would introduce a 'Best Home Baking - Male' category, I'd fancy doing well in that, with or without points

    I have some sympathy with Mike's view that a sizeable number of the contestants are unlikely to travel to the US sufficiently often to be too concerned about points or the lack of in their selected divisions but whilst Weston remains the only significant UK comp there's little point in having a UK specific points system either.

    The major problem, as in previous years, is that Paul and Cat are so far ahead of anyone else in this country likely to enter the Open category that some people will feel they (the other competitors, not Paul and Cat) are just making up the numbers. It's not their fault and it's not JA's fault, it's just the way it is. An invitiational is an intriguing possibility but other then Lee and Rachel Mc (assuming they are even there) who else is likely to fit that category? The US Pros unlikely to be interested unless there's some significant financial inducement I'd have thought.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    I still say what is wrong with us coming up with something for the UK WCS community ??

    I would tend to agree with this. If the WSDC is open to the possibility of truly extending WCS outside of the U.S then I cannot see why an established UK points registry cannot be 'translated' sometime down the line into relevant category entries in the US.

    A UK points registry would give people in this country, and I dare say Europe, more insentive to compete (if that's their thing). Let's face it, I bet there are many others in the UK who would like to compete for points but just cannot afford to fly across to the US to do so. With the way the financial markets are going I can't see the $2 per £1 scenario reappearing any time soon either.

    I definately favour appointing someone other than me to maintain a points registry Maybe the existence of a points registry will convince other organisers to run competitions - albeit on a small scale to begin with.


    As for the points for Weston, I really can only see that handing out Novice points could be the only way forward. I agree with Caro in that the Novice level here in the UK could hold its own against the Novice level over in the US. Ok, not as many dancers by volume but still a good level. Awarding points at this level would be a good idea.
    Anything over and above Novice would not be workable in my eyes. It would be impossile to award points for a specific level at Weston on par with the same level at the US without adhering to the SDC points registry to determine qualification to that level.
    As the UK and US are too far removed for this to work I just dont think it would be possible.




    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    The major problem, as in previous years, is that Paul and Cat are so far ahead of anyone else in this country likely to enter the Open category that some people will feel they (the other competitors, not Paul and Cat) are just making up the numbers.
    This has confused me a few times now. Although it is good marketing for Cat and Paul to claim "Multiple UK Champs for division X", it is still them competing against their students. A very strange situation but, as you say, one that doesn't offer a simple solution.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    As for the points for Weston, I really can only see that handing out Novice points could be the only way forward. I agree with Caro in that the Novice level here in the UK could hold its own against the Novice level over in the US. Ok, not as many dancers by volume but still a good level. Awarding points at this level would be a good idea.
    Having reflected on the awarding of WSDC points, I'm inclined to agree that it is probably more appropriate [and easier to adjudicate] to award points for the Novice J&J category but with an amendment to exclude WCS dancers with 3 years plus regular social dancing experience. Does that seem a fair solution?

  14. #34
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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by johnah View Post
    Having reflected on the awarding of WSDC points, I'm inclined to agree that it is probably more appropriate [and easier to adjudicate] to award points for the Novice J&J category but with an amendment to exclude WCS dancers with 3 years plus regular social dancing experience. Does that seem a fair solution?
    I agree that this will make the awarding of points much more viable however it does solve only a minor problem.

    Over the weekend I chatted to several people about the rules for Weston and the general consensus is that the Open category for both the J&J and the Strictly will have too big a spread of dancers. With the standard of the teachers, such as Paul and Rachel Mc who are in the All-stars division in the States and a handful of people in the Adv division not to mention the guys coming over from France, some who are also at a high standard, compared to the average social dancer who has been doing WCS for 3 years but has never really competed. The range is just so huge that this has put many people off competing and some people have actually changed their minds about going to the event at all.

    So what are the other options? As I think someone has said before you could either split the division and have and intermediate division or you could skim the cream off the top and have an invitational event for the very best of the teachers. The only problem that people come up with is that an extra division would mean extra prizes but if this encouraged (as I'm sure it would) more people to compete then that would be beneficial to the event.

    I really can't see why it is too late to change things now as the event is still a few months away and the Rules weren't out until less than a month before the event last year.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by DS87 View Post
    I agree that this will make the awarding of points much more viable however it does solve only a minor problem.

    Over the weekend I chatted to several people about the rules for Weston and the general consensus is that the Open category for both the J&J and the Strictly will have too big a spread of dancers. With the standard of the teachers, such as Paul and Rachel Mc who are in the All-stars division in the States and a handful of people in the Adv division not to mention the guys coming over from France, some who are also at a high standard, compared to the average social dancer who has been doing WCS for 3 years but has never really competed. The range is just so huge that this has put many people off competing and some people have actually changed their minds about going to the event at all.

    So what are the other options? As I think someone has said before you could either split the division and have and intermediate division or you could skim the cream off the top and have an invitational event for the very best of the teachers. The only problem that people come up with is that an extra division would mean extra prizes but if this encouraged (as I'm sure it would) more people to compete then that would be beneficial to the event.

    I really can't see why it is too late to change things now as the event is still a few months away and the Rules weren't out until less than a month before the event last year.
    DS87..... seeing that you currently have 11 WSDC novice points would you do Novice JnJ at weston if Novice points were on offer?? or would you rather compete in the open category with the better standard of dancer?? I really think the fair way forward to is have the invitational for the teachers in the UK and the US pros coming over, then have Intermediate, Novice and newcomer divisions, with relevant points on offer for Intermediate and Novice. It would give everyone a fairer chance in their respective standard and it would be ultra competitve with WSDC points on offer!

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    DS87..... seeing that you currently have 11 WSDC novice points would you do Novice JnJ at weston if Novice points were on offer?? or would you rather compete in the open category with the better standard of dancer??
    You pose a good question and I think that I would prefer to try and get some more novice points to help me advance to the next division but I would also understand if I was not allowed to enter the novice division.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by DS87 View Post
    You pose a good question and I think that I would prefer to try and get some more novice points to help me advance to the next division but I would also understand if I was not allowed to enter the novice division.


    Im in the same boat. After the comps I did and the results I got I was all set for the push to move up from Novice. I think I only need another 2 or 3. That was way back at the end of 2007 though. Like others on here I just cant afford to keep going back to the US just to get points. Having the chance to get some over here would be brilliant but, as mentioned, I would appreciate that it may not be possible.

    That would, of course, be a very weird situation as someone from the UK may potentially be able to qualify for Intermediate (eventually) having never competed in the US whereas those who actually are at Novice level (based on WSDC rules) can only progress if they can afford the plane fares. *

    *this is a thought process as i am writing so could be totally rubbish

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post


    Im in the same boat. After the comps I did and the results I got I was all set for the push to move up from Novice. I think I only need another 2 or 3. That was way back at the end of 2007 though. Like others on here I just cant afford to keep going back to the US just to get points. Having the chance to get some over here would be brilliant but, as mentioned, I would appreciate that it may not be possible.

    That would, of course, be a very weird situation as someone from the UK may potentially be able to qualify for Intermediate (eventually) having never competed in the US whereas those who actually are at Novice level (based on WSDC rules) can only progress if they can afford the plane fares. *

    *this is a thought process as i am writing so could be totally rubbish
    It`s reads well to me Paul, But lets say that JA ran the event as i suggest with an invitational,Inter,Nov,New etc, I really can`t see anyone placing in the Intermediate category who wouldn`t be worthy of dancing in intermediate standard in the States, TheThe likes of Chelsea,Kirsty Jelen, Caron Douglas, Steve Hall, Paul Harris, Pete and Amy etc etc Some of have already qualified or are soon to be qualified for Intermediate anyway so i don`t see much difference.

    And i think the single biggest most important reason for doing things like this is that i would not want anyone to feel like they are wasting their time competing, I`d want to encourage everyone to want to enter their respective standard without feeling it`s a waste of time. I`m sure if we just had the open and a novice category then some people would feel that it`s pointless entering if they were competing against the UK pro`s which isn`t a great situation to have IMHO....

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I`m sure if we just had the open and a novice category then some people would feel that it`s pointless entering if they were competing against the UK pro`s which isn`t a great situation to have IMHO....
    I totally agree. Either way brings certain issues with it.

    Given the fact what you mention above is something to be avoided, and given a choice between the two, I would probably favour what you suggested earlier.

    The only lasting concern I have is with the points allocation. I have to confess I have not looked into the allocation criteria from JA

    If they introduce an intermediate level (with or without points) then its fair to say that the Novice level will probably receive a greater number of entrants from those who have not been dancing long. That in itself is brilliant.
    IF, and its a big IF, JA then allocate the points on par with the WSDC i.e. based on number of entrants then it is conceivable that someone placing in the Novice division two years on the row would be eligible for Intermediate level.

    BUT

    My question would be whose intermediate level are they eligible for? US intermediate level or UK? I think we would have to be careful if we are treating them both the same given the infancy of the dance in the UK.

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    Re: Weston UK WCS Championships 17 - 19 April 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    it is conceivable that someone placing in the Novice division two years on the row would be eligible for Intermediate level.
    I think JA's own criteria regarding those NOT eligible for Novice would prohibit this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Addiction Rules
    2. Anyone who has ever been placed in either a previous US or UK WCS competition (whether Jack & Jill, Classic, Strictly Swing, Masters, Showcase or any other division).
    There's an intriguing new one here too

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Addiction Rules
    4. Anyone who has ever competed in any WCS division above Novice
    level.as anyone who has placed
    I think the introduction of points possibly gives more issues than benefits. On the plus side, it may raise some overseas interest in the competition (esp. with the falling exchange rates) and it gives those who do travel over there regularly a chance to accelerate their progress through the ranks.

    But I do agree with Paul F (even though I have yet to go to the States so could be talking cr*p) that the divisions are not comparable. I'd consider myself an intermediate in UK terms but certainly novice in the States. DS87 and Paul Harris I'd consider advanced in UK terms but not similarly so in the States and so on.

    If you are going to introduce a US points system then I belive you have to also introduce the same criteria for entry to divisions as you might have in the States (or does this differ event by event over there?). That may well lead to a lot of sandbagging, at least in the early years but I can't see how you can do it any differently.

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