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Thread: Yanking

  1. #21
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Thats a good way of dealing with it or else its straight down the trouble barrel which is black and white.. your hurting my arms love... loosen up a bit would ya. whilst smiling and fluttering ya eyelashes.
    Ive found fluttering my eyelashes doesnt seem to help i dont know why though

  2. #22
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Why not take the non-confrontational, positive "I am working on my light lead and I wondered if you'd mind helping me out with it" approach
    Thanks for the idea Stokie.

    I think I am going to approach it from the point of view of the firm grip she has. I think she will acknowledge that and not get offended.

    If I can cure the problem of the firm grip then she will not be able to yank so much, if at all.

    Any thoughts?

  3. #23
    Registered User Nessiemonster's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Thanks for the idea Stokie.

    I think I am going to approach it from the point of view of the firm grip she has. I think she will acknowledge that and not get offended.

    If I can cure the problem of the firm grip then she will not be able to yank so much, if at all.

    Any thoughts?
    Just thought, it might be worth chatting to others who dance with her and finding out if she does the same thing with them. If so, how do they deal with it and has any particular approach been successful. (As she's told you how much she enjoy's dancing with you, it seems unlikely her grip/yank is a direct response to your style of leading.)

    If firm grip is the problem there may be a number of reasons for this. In my leading experience on the floor in classes, I've spoken to a few women asking them not to hold on so tight, telling them that it's much easier to follow the lead for turns if they relax their grip. (Perhaps being a woman helps with saying this to other women as I'm talking from experience.) I've also used the approach that if their grip is more relaxed it gives the lead more freedom to try different moves and give them a more varied dance.

    Some women have said they grip tight as their balance is poor. Others haven't yet found the right shoes for dancing so are not feeling so comfortable. Many beginners seem to be nervous and aren't really aware that they're doing it! Others just haven't realised that it's not necessary.

    Whatever approach you take I hope you have success and are able to enjoy dancing with her as much as she enjoys dancing with you.

  4. #24
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessiemonster View Post
    Just thought, it might be worth chatting to others who dance with her and finding out if she does the same thing with them. If so, how do they deal with it and has any particular approach been successful. (
    I have spoken to most of the guys, including a number of conversations with my best friend, they all just avoid her as best they can. The problem is that we speak about social things as well as dance so it is difficult for me to avoid her unless I want to be rude and I want to avoid that as the problem is something she is probabally not aware of.

  5. #25
    Registered User Nessiemonster's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I have spoken to most of the guys, including a number of conversations with my best friend, they all just avoid her as best they can. The problem is that we speak about social things as well as dance so it is difficult for me to avoid her unless I want to be rude and I want to avoid that as the problem is something she is probabally not aware of.
    Aye, the social aspect can complicate matters sometimes. It sounds as though you'll be doing everyone a favour if you are able to find the right approach with her: you won't dread your dances with her, and she will hopefully find the floor opening up to her again, increasing her dancing enjoyment

    All the best!

  6. #26
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    Re: Yanking

    My approach to the gibbon grip is to use my thumb and fore-finger to prise it off, use a loose contact that breaks if they go too far away, use the back of my hand or even my fist instead of fingers to lead with, lead from my partner's wrist, fore-arm, shoulder... anywhere that avoids hand-to hand thumb-wrestling.

    Normally the grip is worsened by them stepping back miles and throwing themselves into moves and back-leading; the 'grip' is just to re-assure themselves that you are not going anywhere and you are still at the end of their arm. I've found that if I can bolster their confidence in me as a lead, then they relax more and the grip loosens. (lead basic moves, lead clearly, lead confidently, move to them as much as they move to you... etc.)

  7. #27
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Thirdly, keep your grip light. With me, this means constantly breaking any grip that a follow tries to make on my hands. If they're particularly bad at it, I'll start using moves where they can't hold on - usually a lot of spinning and turning. For either partner, any yank has to get through the grip, if the lead's too heavy for the grip, the grip will break.(like yanking or gripping).
    As a follow; I try to just keep my fingers slightly curled then I can break the handhold if needed.

    Sometimes though the lead will see this as a sign that he needs to hold on tighter.

    I hate to say anything, and progress to losing my frame, taking only small steps, losing eye contact, praying for the end of the track and just trying to get through it as best I can.

  8. #28
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    she has already told me she likes my lead and she likes dancing with me.
    No other way...you'll have to just tell her. Something like "I really enjoy our dances but would enjoy them more if I had a lighter response from you. It would help me practise my lighter lead and may help you dance with other people who prefer a lighter follow too".

    Not too harsh, but she may take the hint.

  9. #29
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    As a follow; I try to just keep my fingers slightly curled then I can break the handhold if needed.

    Sometimes though the lead will see this as a sign that he needs to hold on tighter.

    I hate to say anything, and progress to losing my frame, taking only small steps, losing eye contact, praying for the end of the track and just trying to get through it as best I can.
    We were taught (in salsa) that it was the followers job to connect and stay connected with the man, not by gripping but by making a slight hook shape with the fingers and gently hooking over the guys hand. And that a light fingertip to fingertip hold is generally fine and required for many moves. Maybe in MJ they need to be a bit more forceful in doing this (I always mention it in the beginners practise sessions if I'm taxiing).

    I find the best way to get a looser grip from a leader is to but manhandle their fingers from my hand, as though they're squeezing my hand. Usually works after several attempts.

  10. #30
    Registered User Nick M's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I would like to approach this lady in a nice way about the problem. Any suggestions please?
    I would start with "Is it OK if I give you a bit of feedback?" and see how she responds. If she is up for some feedback, then give her 2 positives to each negative, and offer the negative as an improvement suggestion.

    "I love dancing with you; you are an very good follow and your spins are fantastic. If you can get your arm tension a little better, you could be excellent. Can I show you what I mean?" and take it from there

  11. #31
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    We were taught (in salsa) that it was the followers job to connect and stay connected with the man, not by gripping but by making a slight hook shape with the fingers and gently hooking over the guys hand. And that a light fingertip to fingertip hold is generally fine and required for many moves. Maybe in MJ they need to be a bit more forceful in doing this (I always mention it in the beginners practise sessions if I'm taxiing).
    That works in MJ, no need to be more forceful IMO.

    What I meant though, is if I can break contact when I need to, I can keep my frame and enjoy the dance. Some leads worry if contact is broken, and will hold on tight. This is where one can get chewed about.

    Also if the follow is tallish, which I am, it can be more painful than for shorter follows.
    I find the best way to get a looser grip from a leader is to but manhandle their fingers from my hand, as though they're squeezing my hand. Usually works after several attempts.
    It's easy to wriggling you hand loose, but some leads don't take the hint and reassert pressure.

    So you've just got to keep on doing it, even is it doesn't work after several attemps.

    He might ease off, then reaply through habit or nerves.

    Of course, if he is using his thumb/s too and the grip is painful then I will say something.

  12. #32
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    That works in MJ, no need to be more forceful IMO.
    With the forceful comment, I meant about teachers explaining more forcefully and frequently about light hand hold in particular to beginners (but also in some intermediate classes where there are a noticeable few people who are yankers/grippers), rather than the actually physically being more forceful.

    And maybe when teachers are dancing with yankers if they're helping them out, it could be made more obvious that they've got a problem with it. People I've tended to mention it too (seemed to) have been pleased to have constructive criticism and I'm not a teacher, so I'm sure more people would benefit from having a teacher's input.

    (Maybe the teachers do say something, but the culprits don't listen)

  13. #33
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    With the forceful comment, I meant about teachers explaining more forcefully and frequently about light hand hold in particular to beginners (but also in some intermediate classes where there are a noticeable few people who are yankers/grippers), rather than the actually physically being more forceful.
    Oh, get you now.
    And maybe when teachers are dancing with yankers if they're helping them out, it could be made more obvious that they've got a problem with it. People I've tended to mention it too (seemed to) have been pleased to have constructive criticism and I'm not a teacher, so I'm sure more people would benefit from having a teacher's input.

    (Maybe the teachers do say something, but the culprits don't listen)
    Getting the tension right is very hard for a beginner.

    I remember being told I was too floppy, so I overcompensated and went to the other extreme before I got it right.

    I think only teachers and taxis should offer advice (you are a taxi arn't you Emmylou) otherwise confusion can result from
    conflicting advice.



    Ant, couldn't you ask the teacher or the taxi to dance with this lady and give her some feedback?
    Last edited by Astro; 5th-December-2008 at 03:40 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Doesn't a lot of this yanking boil down to one partner simply not ‘listening’ to the other? IMO quite a few problems raised on this forum (sleazing, yanking etc) are due to one partner doing something the other doesn't like, and ignoring increasingly 'loud' signals to change. Maybe listening and adjusting ought to be stressed more in lessons – can these skills be taught? Even the most basic and obvious differencea of height and weight between partners can make a huge difference to a dance. If someone (for the sake of the argument let’s say a leader) has two consecutive dances with followers from opposite ends of the spectrum size-wise and tries to have the same dance with both of them, the chances are that it doesn’t suit one of them as well as it could, unless that leader is making at least some adjustments to his lead.

    Beginners don’t seem to be as much of a problem, because on the whole they are open to feedback and are dancing with taxis who they should be listening to, and of course some of the problems are just part of the learning curve. I think the real issue is that some experienced dancers slip into bad habits without realising it. I think too many dancers assume that if they have been dancing a long time they must know exactly what they are doing, therefore any adverse comments or negative body language from partners (like trying to get out of a lobster claw death grip) must be the other person’s problem.

    I’m sure it’s the same for leaders talking about followers, but when I started, there were loads of experienced leaders whose faults I learnt about from other followers (this one’s bouncy, this one yanks, this one’s a bit over-friendly, that one always gets you on the wrong foot, this one is always off the beat). I was even warned not to dance with some of the worst until I was better able to cope with them! When you first start dancing you sit down after a rough-ish dance and report back that you struggled to follow X, and your friends casually say “Oh yes, X is a rubbish leader because he does xyz, don’t worry, it isn’t you.” Faults are discussed, followers learn to make adjustments to compensate, but there is no real suggestion that anyone should feed back the problems to the ‘guilty’. It only seems to be when pain is involved that things (might) come into the open and be said to their faces.

    I don’t have a solution to this, btw. I know I’m not perfect myself, and I’m fairly wary of offering advice to people unless I am positive I know what I’m talking about. Anyway, I don’t think that in a social setting you can march around criticising people for not giving you the perfect dance. What I would like to see is a promotion of ‘read what your partner is communicating to you’ and encourage people to recognise signs which might mean they are being ‘asked’ to change something.

    I would tend to think followers should be better at reading and adjusting, if only because that is what a follower should be doing for each dance, since every man leads different moves. By the same token, I would tend to think that if a leader leads the same moves for each dance, he has more opportunity to get into a rut with how exactly he does it, as the temptation must be to lead in the same way each time. But I don’t think this is really a ‘lead’ or a ‘follow’ issue in what is, after all, a partner dance. Partnership to me implies communication, and this should surely be a two-way process or it isn’t real communication. It might not work every time, but I think that’s what we should be aiming for.

    What do other people think?

  15. #35
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    I just avoid them like the plague, in the future!
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  16. #36
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I just avoid them like the plague, in the future!


    Welllll, it's alright if you are a dance goddess and have people queuing up to dance with you, but mere mortals spend a lot of time dancing with less than perfection!

    And what about cute but lousy dancers????

  17. #37
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    Re: Yanking

    Some beginners are hard to convince tho that you don't actually need to yank your partner.. I had an experience last night whilst dancing when a beginner lady - originally rock and roller / old jive - insisted on stepping back with so much force that my shoulder "went" again... old injury.. muscle seized up at Camber last time and this time it went again.... Simply tried to explain to her (without telling her that it was her that made my shoulder go...) that she didn't quite need to step back so forcefully... insistent tho she is that she did that all the time when she jived before... hopefully with time she will see that you really don't need that much force to bounce off your partner..

    oh well .. rant over.. and shoulder much better after an early departure from dancing and a hot bath / hot water bottle... now i know why I like blues dancing so much.....

  18. #38
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    what about cute but lousy dancers????
    Well, I did get hold of a young guys hands the other night and dug my thumbs in the back of them and asked him a cute smiley way.... "Do you like that?"
    He looked totally horrified and said "No", as he snatched his hands away

    and then I replied, "Neither do I"

    He seemed to get the message AND he asked me again later!
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  19. #39
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Oh, get you now.
    Ant, couldn't you ask the teacher or the taxi to dance with this lady and give her some feedback?
    Thanks for that Astro but she doesn't go to lessons, so that won't work unfortunately.

  20. #40
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Well, I did get hold of a young guys hands the other night and dug my thumbs in the back of them and asked him a cute smiley way.... "Do you like that?"
    Remind me not to get on the wrong side of you then.

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