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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Yanking

    Moved from the "Dance Compliments" thread - David

    I have this problem of yanking from a very friendly lady who dances with me quite often. I dread the dance because the constant pulling on my arm feels like the drip, drip, drip, of torture and quite honestly I don't know what to do.

    I have tried changing my lead and the moves I lead etc and unless I go round in a continuous circle the pulling continues.

    I would like to approach this lady in a nice way about the problem. Any suggestions please?
    Last edited by David Bailey; 3rd-December-2008 at 04:57 PM.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post


    I have this problem of yanking from a very friendly lady who dances with me quite often. I dread the dance because the constant pulling on my arm feels like the drip, drip, drip, of torture and quite honestly I don't know what to do.

    I have tried changing my lead and the moves I lead etc and unless I go round in a continuous circle the pulling continues.

    I would like to approach this lady in a nice way about the problem. Any suggestions please?

    same trick i suggested to moondancer relax your own lead if her hand slips from yours it really doesnt matter
    thing is if you tense up all you end up doing is competing in a tug of war the more you tense the more she will

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    same trick i suggested to moondancer relax your own lead if her hand slips from yours it really doesnt matter
    thing is if you tense up all you end up doing is competing in a tug of war the more you tense the more she will
    Martin I have tried all that.

    I really need to speak to this lady and I would like to know the right approach.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Martin I have tried all that.

    I really need to speak to this lady and I would like to know the right approach.
    i tend to lead with fingertips so its really hard for a lady to pull on them
    but you could just say
    DONT PULL ON MY B*%^dy hand

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i tend to lead with fingertips so its really hard for a lady to pull on them
    but you could just say
    DONT PULL ON MY B*%^dy hand
    Thats how I like to lead but this lady somehow manages to grab hold of your hand and then hangs on for dear life. Even when I lead into another move and the lead dictates she lets go I have to fight to loosen the grip.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I have this problem of yanking from a very friendly lady who dances with me quite often. I dread the dance because the constant pulling on my arm feels like the drip, drip, drip, of torture and quite honestly I don't know what to do.

    I have tried changing my lead and the moves I lead etc and unless I go round in a continuous circle the pulling continues.

    I would like to approach this lady in a nice way about the problem. Any suggestions please?
    Close / basket hold?

    Simply avoid all the accordion-type moves (admittedly, not easy). She can't yank that way.

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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    a little trick you can do here is perhaps to relax your follow in such a way that he cant yank your arm or if he does all that happens is his arm moves back
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i do this with follows who are too stiff and yank back rather than building the tension just relax it a bit
    now i am not saying its your fault just that you can sort it out without having to say anything if you wish to do so
    I disagree that if you relax your follow a man’s arm just moves back – if a man yanks quickly and hard enough he will literally pull you off your feet. I've found that relaxing your arm only works with someone who has a modicum of sensitivity in their lead and can notice a difference - someone who yanks like an ox and thinks they are right to do so doesn't necessarily change because your following arm changes. I know different leads have different strengths and I think I’ve been dancing long enough now to know how to compensate for, adjust to or endure most of them. I’m not sparrow-armed or particularly fragile, either. And I am far too good at keeping my mouth shut when I should speak up so trust me, if I could have fixed it myself I would have.

    I actually had this guy last on the intermediate class rotation so I had already endured stepping through the routine with him slowly (but at full force) and he can’t have thought I needed a mega-thumping I-couldn't-follow-a-tram-lead when we were stepping through that, especially after we had repeated it several times. I did reduce gradually down to complete spaghetti arms to see what stage a bit of yank-awareness might kick in, but nothing changed no matter what I did.

    The other thing I usually try is to keep a slight bend in my arm so the force is absorbed in the bicep/tricep which is less painful than allowing it to reach the shoulder - works on some, and even if it doesn't always change the lead, the arm muscle ache is gone within a few tracks, as opposed to having a sore shoulder for the rest of the week. But this guy was pushing and pulling really hard and I was struggling to balance my steps at all, especially returns, due to major porridge stirring and the like. I like my spins and it was really hacking me off to just be trying to stay on my feet without falling over.

    I think when he got the hump and led the rest of the dance lightly he probably intended to take the **** because his moves got slightly more intermediate than before – think he was throwing (literally!) every move in that he knew - trying to show me what an experienced dancer he was, and trying to lead so lightly that I would understand how much I needed his previous manly lead! In actual fact, he reduced his pull to what I would consider to be within normal levels, the dance was OK after that, and there were no complicated moves or anything I couldn’t follow with ease. And he wasn’t a great dancer by any means, really quite average, never mind that he said he had been dancing for 12 years. My more upfront friend might have queried what he’d been spending all that time on, but of course I was far too polite!

    Ant, maybe you could find some positive point to praise about your problem lady’s dancing first, and then perhaps say how much you like it when her following arm goes lighter on particular moves? Then say how much easier they are to lead with her when she is light than with some other ladies, how much better lightness is than yank, and suggest you would like to work on making your lead clearer so that you could lead her lighter still? …Let’s face it, there’s no nice way to be told you’re a perfect yanker.

    Or you could just be dead subtle, like Martin suggests!

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Close / basket hold?

    Simply avoid all the accordion-type moves (admittedly, not easy). She can't yank that way.

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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Martin I have tried all that.

    I really need to speak to this lady and I would like to know the right approach.
    Not jive PC, but if you hold the ladies hand (gently) she usually will not feel the need to hold yours. You will know when to let go.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post

    I disagree that if you relax your follow a man’s arm just moves back

    if I could have fixed it myself I would have.
    the reasoning behind my suggestion is quite simple if there is no tension for him to pull against he just cant pull

    I have found as a taxi this is without doubt the best way of getting beginners who hold on like grim death to understand lead follow tension
    i used to be the worlds worst heavy lead until i learned the subtle approach

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    The other thing I usually try is to keep a slight bend in my arm so the force is absorbed in the bicep/tricep
    this is absolutely essential one because it allows you to feel the slight changes in tension a lead will give and two if your arms are out straight you are far to far away from the lead to get the timing of the next move right or for you to be lead correctly from the leads core

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    Re: Yanking

    Tell her she'll go blind if she doesn't stop.

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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    the reasoning behind my suggestion is quite simple if there is no tension for him to pull against he just cant pull
    Sorry , but this just isn't true. If I stand still and make my arm completely relaxed and you stand opposite me, take hold of it and pull hard, what will happen? Nothing? Then you aren’t pulling as hard as a proper yanker, simple as that.

    I can isolate my arms so that pushing and pulling them won't do anything (like someone trying to armjive with a spaghetti-armed follower – the feet wont move and they would just be swinging the arms) but I can't detach my shoulder from my body. If my partner pulls hard enough on a spaghettified arm than he will simply jerk me forward from the shoulder. The only way that won’t happen is if I counterbalance the pull. Even so, a sharp yank can still unbalance me and pull me forwards.

    I don’t know what the average jiver male weighs, but I'm not one of these petite 4-stone-wet-through women. I’m somewhere between 9½ and 10 stone-ish and just over 5'7". If a bloke is pulling me off my feet even when I’m expecting it then he is pulling pretty d*mn hard. At that strength you have choices of either absorbing the yank (painful), resisting it (increases the yank next time) or going with it to reduce the pain (forward like a catapult!), but just providing no tension at all is not a solution that works in these circumstances.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Martin I have tried all that.

    I really need to speak to this lady and I would like to know the right approach.
    Sometimes all the avoidance tactics don't work and you do have to actually say something to the person.

    When doing that be aware that they may not take it well and may not want to dance with you for a while afterwards - either because they are offended or embarrassed.

    I once had to speak to a lead who was too rough and hurting me. It was either that or avoid dancing with him. I took him to one side, quietly told him that his lead was hurting me, and that I felt I needed to say something as I otherwise enjoyed dancing with him. He didn't seem to take it that well, said no-one else seemed to have a problem etc.

    However he did take it on board and next time we danced his lead was lighter. He has never been too rough or hurt me since then, I don't know what he is like with other people, but he has developed a lovely light lead with me.

    Sometimes the direct approach works.

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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Thats how I like to lead but this lady somehow manages to grab hold of your hand and then hangs on for dear life. Even when I lead into another move and the lead dictates she lets go I have to fight to loosen the grip.
    Have you tried greasing your hand?

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    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Best way to give feedback is turn it round to yourself, and ask her the question - something like "how easy do you find my lead?". You're not criticising her, but starting a discussion. Hopefully she'll say something helpful like she finds it hard following certain people, then you can suggest she tries different things like relaxing, loosening the grip/arm tension etc with different people.

    When i lead beginners and find they're trying to lead me/have really tense arms that makes them heavy to lead, I ask them this and whether they find they have aching arms at the end of the night. Then say "I find changing such & such helps me".

    Otherwise if you've tried that, just explain why you don't want to dance with her anymore. I've done that to one guy who wrenches - he admitted he knew it was a problem, so I said that until he changes it I'm not willing to have my arm wrenched (admittedly this was a guy that I dislike dancing with anyway, and is quite drastic - however if he's not willing to change after being told by several people including the franchise owner that he's danger the way he currently wrenches, then I'm not willing to be hurt).

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Best way to give feedback is turn it round to yourself, and ask her the question - something like "how easy do you find my lead?". You're not criticising her, but starting a discussion.
    Thanks for that but she has already told me she likes my lead and she likes dancing with me.

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    Cool Re: Yanking

    Why not take the non-confrontational, positive "I am working on my light lead and I wondered if you'd mind helping me out with it" approach

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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    A couple of specific tips - all of which boil down to one point: dance properly.

    Firstly, for either lead or follow, a good frame and posture will always help. A huge part of this is to make sure you keep your arm in front of your shoulder (this is great advice anyway; it minimises the chance of your shoulder being dislocated). The key to a good frame is that you control your own frame. If you relax your frame (reduce tension) it will increase the impact on parts of your body that aren't made to absorb impacts - ie your joints.

    Secondly, manage your weight: always keep your feet under your body. For a follow, this means that if someone pulls your arm then you're balanced and far more able to move in the direction they pull (and you're more stable, meaning that they're more likely to go out of balance than you are). That means instead of the yank knocking you off balance, it starts you moving (and the lead has to deal with this if it's not what they expected). For a lead, it means that you're always in a position of strength to cope with a follow who tries to pull your arms out of the sockets. This is most important when spinning.

    Thirdly, keep your grip light. With me, this means constantly breaking any grip that a follow tries to make on my hands. If they're particularly bad at it, I'll start using moves where they can't hold on - usually a lot of spinning and turning. For either partner, any yank has to get through the grip, if the lead's too heavy for the grip, the grip will break.

    Finally (mostly for leads), lead from the body. Ceroc tends to teach leading from the arms, which just encourages yanking from both parties. If you lead moves from your body, letting your arm naturally follow it means that you're very unlikely to yank your partner around and it means that you'll do all the things I said above more easily. If you do this, your dancing flows a lot more; if your dancing flows, you offer fewer opportunities for someone to yank you around.

    None of these will solve the problem; but all should help survive it. The final two options are to either speak to the person about it or avoid dancing with them. I tend to go for the latter option. If someone's new or someone I know well, then I'm likely to say something to help them - but only a quick, quiet word or two; if they've been around forever and are still doing it, I expect they're a lost cause. I like to build a relationship and earn some respect before I dish out advice on the dance floor; most of the people I've done that with don't need very much advice.

    There's an added benefit. I find that dancing properly - with strong frame and good technique - attracts good dancers and scares off bad dancers. The good dancers enjoy dancing with someone competent (especially someone who's new to dancing). The bad dancers dislike dancing with someone who doesn't let them away with their bad habits (like yanking or gripping). I see that as a win win.

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    Re: Yanking

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Why not take the non-confrontational, positive "I am working on my light lead and I wondered if you'd mind helping me out with it" approach
    Thats a good way of dealing with it or else its straight down the trouble barrel which is black and white.. your hurting my arms love... loosen up a bit would ya. whilst smiling and fluttering ya eyelashes.

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    Registered User Nessiemonster's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Related Compliments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post

    The other thing I usually try is to keep a slight bend in my arm so the force is absorbed in the bicep/tricep which is less painful than allowing it to reach the shoulder - works on some, and even if it doesn't always change the lead, the arm muscle ache is gone within a few tracks, as opposed to having a sore shoulder for the rest of the week. But this guy was pushing and pulling really hard and I was struggling to balance my steps at all, especially returns, due to major porridge stirring and the like. I like my spins and it was really hacking me off to just be trying to stay on my feet without falling over.
    Hmm, I tend to do that with my arm as well. It truly backfired at the weekend though.

    A rather, um, 'enthusiastic' lead gave me so much momentum into a free spin that I think I managed about 2.5 spins (it was easier to go with it than break the momentum). Unfortunately he seemed rather pleased with this result and a couple of moves later attempted a push spin.

    He put so much effort into the push spin that it really hurt my upper arm, which took the force of it. I'm not a fan of push spins at the best of times, and this one Really hurt I only did one spin, which really disappointed the lead - he was hoping for a record.

    In retrospect maybe I should have let my arm go completely spaghetti, but that would likely have hurt my shoulder as my arm whizzed round in a windmill action!

    I haven't yet worked out how to prevent this yanking myself - the lead usually gets a grimace and a poor dance for the rest of the track as I try to protect myself, but it doesn't seem to make much odds.

    Sadly this one incident then affected my dancing for the rest of the night. Big thanks to Aurion for a wonderfully gentle, finger-tip led dance soon after though - honestly, when dances can be that beautiful and smooth, with just a fingertip connection, why do people feel the need to yank?

    (And off topic, though I think related, why isn't lead/follow/connection routinely taught in classes? If people were taught this from the beginning and encouraged to use it, rather than having to go to specific workshops, it could save a lot of injuries and difficult situations... Which brings it back on topic )

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