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Thread: Well done Gordon Brown

  1. #21
    Registered User MarkW's Avatar
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    But the intricacies of the tax system still fail to compensate for the ridiculous approach underlying this budget - the country is into the red by many billions, businesses are going under every day, and our Prime Minister is telling us all to go and spend all the money we have left to "revive the economy" - now where do you think that money is going to end up? Certainly not in the hands of the poor. Brown was the man in charge of the country's coffers for several years and this is the result - aided and abetted by a much wider economic problem, granted, but if he hadn't borrowed so much in the first place, and hadn't had to because he'd spent so much on white elephants, then we wouldn't be in nearly such a deep pile of doo-doo. And he has openly said that lowering taxes now means we will have even more to pay him back - after he was the one who wasted and squandered our tax money in the first place - in the years and decades to come. It makes no sense.

    You are right about the cash. It won't end up in the hands of the poor. A poor person is very likely to spend an extra £1 whereas a richer person is comparatively more likely to save it. Spending patterns are also different as personal wealth changes. I don't know if this forms part of the thinking but giving money to the less rich means it is more likely to get spent and possibly get spent less on imports. If I was trying to reflate an economy without sucking in imports I'd think about tax cuts for the less well off.

    I agree that the government borrowing money in relatively good economic times is now a part of the problem. I presume the white elephants referred to are PFI projects and I agree, I never liked that idea either.

  2. #22
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    There was a letter in the paper yesterday from a retailer who stated his shop is just going to mark up all the prices by 2.5% to counteract the 2.5% reduction in VAT. essentially the prices will stay the same for us.. if it cost £100 before it'll still cost £100 but now the shops get the extra £2.50.

    As Phil states it's only "luxury" items that have VAT (although it does seem IIRC that toilet roll is classified as a luxury) the essentials are all VAT free anyway.

  3. #23
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    As Phil states it's only "luxury" items that have VAT (although it does seem IIRC that toilet roll is classified as a luxury) the essentials are all VAT free anyway.
    I wouldn't class adult clothes as luxury items, we all need to keep warm. (children's clothes are not liable for VAT)

    I remember as a child having to take cut up newspaper off a spike in the toilet. Perhaps that's what they mean by recycling newspapers.

  4. #24
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I remember as a child having to take cut up newspaper off a spike in the toilet. Perhaps that's what they mean by recycling newspapers.
    Newspaper?? pfft, we used to have to pick our own dock leaves

    ..........and I really can't see the benefit of a 'Robin Hood' tax....wherever in the salary hierachy that statement was pitched at.

    I for one am a high rate tax payer (not the bracket mentioned in the budget - I wish!!) and it makes me cringe every time I open my wage packet. I've worked hard all my life to get to that scale so there is nothing that p*sses me off than having to hand more of it over just because I've 'earned' it.
    Last edited by Genevieve; 26th-November-2008 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Genevieve View Post
    Newspaper?? pfft, we used to have to pick our own dock leaves
    My other Grandmother used that awful shiny stuff that has no absorbtion.
    I notice they have stopped using it in public conveniences.

  6. #26
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    I presume the argument goes that –
    (1) Changing VAT is easier than income tax rates
    (2) You only get the saving if you spend money [???]
    (3) It targets savings towards the poorer but not the poorest
    (4) It ensures a stimulation of the economy which would otherwise be reeling under the rapid drop in demand

    I only wonder:
    · Why it did not occur to the government to dampen the evident over-demand in the few years that lead up to this – Gordon is no vunderkid
    · Having created a problem by excessive borrowing how are they going to ensure they do not merely add long-term to the problem; Marxism had it right after all, capitalist excess will bring down the titan

    Of course to be critical you have to come up with an alternative to offer; I don’t have one but then I would have acted before the cruch (and that's not hindsight, a senior banker friend of mine acted three years ago in preparation of his personal circumstances for this).

  7. #27
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Genevieve View Post
    Newspaper?? pfft, we used to have to pick our own dock leaves



  8. #28
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by ashenfie View Post
    Sad thing is not many high earners will pay it. For example i wonder how much the charman of say Barclaycard will pay in tax.

    I understand his basic wage is under the £150k band the rest is 'share options' worth Millions per year based on performance. The share option scheme is on in a share option scheme and therefore he will not pay tax on it at all!

    Very few people earn as a wage over 150k and those who have incomes in tax bracket have very good accountants, so will find way to avoid most of it.
    Income is income you can't really avoid paying income tax unless you earn less that £6035 (2008/9). Anything over that amount is taxed, albeit at difference rates depending on the type of income. Income tax is deducted at source by PAYE before you even get your hands on what's left.

    By giving the Barclays chairman a basic salary of £150k and then options he is only going to get them if Barclays performs well.

    I'm sure we've all heard about directors and suchlike that leave or are sacked if the company does not do well. They are in the ultimate position - if the shareholders feel that he/she has not performed they get sacked. End of.

    If you want to earn £150k and all the options you have to work your socks off to get there and then find yourself at the mercy of your staff performance and outside circustances that you can't influence. Personally Id rather be where I am - I can influence whether or not I keep my job and get a bonus by my own work.

  9. #29
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    By giving the Barclays chairman a basic salary of £150k and then options he is only going to get them if Barclays performs well.

    I'm sure we've all heard about directors and suchlike that leave or are sacked if the company does not do well. They are in the ultimate position - if the shareholders feel that he/she has not performed they get sacked. End of.
    Which is a nice theory but we've all heard about directors/boards of companies getting £1 million plus bonuses even as the company/bank goes under and hundreds are laid off - they're fat, dumb & happy in their giant house and shiny Bentley and have no reason to award themselves a huge pay cut.

  10. #30
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Incy View Post
    .... albeit at difference rates depending on the type of income. .
    exactly , and any one with a decent accountant is not going to pay tax at the rate of 45%

  11. #31
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    By giving the Barclays chairman a basic salary of £150k and then options he is only going to get them if Barclays performs well.
    Well, to be fair, Barclays seems to have been less reckless than some of the other banks. But the other 'big bank' chairmen were taking in huge bonuses while their banks were overextending and overexposing themselves.

    I'm sure we've all heard about directors and suchlike that leave or are sacked if the company does not do well.
    Yeah, we've all heard about the multi-million pound payouts they get when they leave as well. It honestly seems that a chimp could have done better that Carly Fiorina, for example, yet Fiorina recieved $21 million as a severance payment. (Still a bargain to get rid of her at that price: the share price jumped by a lot more than that on the annoucement she'd been fired).

    But more importantly, it doesn't actually seem to happen that often. I'm reminded of the Dilbert sketch (paraphrased from memory):

    CEO: So, we will be cutting 5000 development jobs to save costs.
    Dilbert: Can you explain why the top level managers are getting 20% raises at the same time?
    CEO: Well, we have to pay them for all the risks they take.
    Dilbert: But didn't you say we were the ones getting laid off?

    Far from being sacked, one of the things noted in current discussions about executive pay is how unusual it is for a CEO not to get his "performance related bonus", even if the company is falling apart under his reign.

  12. #32
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Income is income you can't really avoid paying income tax unless you earn less that £6035 (2008/9). Anything over that amount is taxed, albeit at difference rates depending on the type of income. Income tax is deducted at source by PAYE before you even get your hands on what's left.

    By giving the Barclays chairman a basic salary of £150k and then options he is only going to get them if Barclays performs well.

    I'm sure we've all heard about directors and such like that leave or are sacked if the company does not do well. They are in the ultimate position - if the shareholders feel that he/she has not performed they get sacked. End of.

    If you want to earn £150k and all the options you have to work your socks off to get there and then find yourself at the mercy of your staff performance and outside circustances that you can't influence. Personally Id rather be where I am - I can influence whether or not I keep my job and get a bonus by my own work.
    Share holders have very little say in anything and often pay to get rid of bad performers. Good performance is definded by the board which the chairman has the final say. so Chairmans are in a win win situation, the trick is getting there in the first place, not so easy!

    Share option are not payed out of PAYE and are generally not subject to tax

    My PAYE is less £6000 and I have 2x4 bed houses and drive 1 year old BMW and run an Ex Wife with 2 kids and Girl Friend.So what you get via PAYE and what you earn are not related, when you not one of the works but the boss. Not paying tax is my accounts job and i am sure you would be upset if you discovered how little TAX i pay.

    P.S. I only work 4 days a week. Many peope on low incomes work far harder than I, some and 7 days a weeks, so saying earning less means you work less hard is simply not true. Many ppl earn peanuts and work all hours and are very dedicated.

    The trick is working smarter.The problems is many hard working people under value them selves and don't realise their true value!

    I'm not in the 150K bracket bit not far off.
    Last edited by ashenfie; 27th-November-2008 at 12:31 PM.

  13. #33
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    I would really like to see the end of these obscene golden handshakes, kicks upstairs for incompetents, and golden thankyou pay offs and bonuses for incompetents.

    Take Ian Blair - he steps down today because he is useless, not to mention corrupt.

    Yet, he will still get paid his weekely wage up until the date he was meant to retire, if he hadn't been sacked.

    Then when that stops he goes straight on to his greedy pension.

    He will in fact be better off financially than if he hadn't been sacked.

    Because he can do another job now if he wants. It's almost as if Boris Johnson is his secret best buddy.

  14. #34
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    Re: Well done Gordon Brown

    Seems Gordon wants to switch to the Euro.

    Pounds or Euros?

    Comment saviez vous?

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