You're right, I wasn't there. I can only make a decision as to what happened based on what you said. And if you are admitting to a failure to describe the situation accurately, then I apologise for any misunderstanding that may have occured, based on said failure.
Although of course, I do have a reasonable grasp of what happens at dance nights. I've been to a few here and there you know. Just the odd one. Maybe even worked at a couple.
As for trying to be patronising, I'd give it up now. Quite frankly, you're not really very good at that either
I didn't resort to insults either. I merely commented on how your attitude came across to me, based on what you said. That's not insulting per se, merely my opinion on you, based on what you write. Of course, it may be insulting, but then, that's your fault, not mine. Not knowing who you are, I can only base my opinion of you based on the little I know. And it's not at all flattering right now
Again, I accept your apology.
Mind you, I would like to know which of: '60', '150' and "the vast majority of people were against the class" you don't understand ?
*shrug* I admit I just don't understand your position.
I am a local down here. You are not.
I know the area. You do not.
I know the freestyle in question. You do not.
We don't have classes for our freestyles down here, and previously when a class has been tried (outside of special events/theme nights etc) which it has from time to time, always the prevailing opinion has been that it is not a good thing. The latest being the Ceroc Totton freestyle where the class was dumped 3/4 months ago after many complaints. I know this history. You do not.
On top of that, I was at the Bournemouth class/freestyle in question. You were not.
Admittedly I didn't talk to 'everyone', but I had lots of conversations that night about the music etc., and 'yes', the class. You had no conversations.
I gained a pretty good perception of the prevailing opinion. You did not.
I really don't understand how you can not attend the freestyle, not know the area, not know the history and claim you know the prevailing opinion better than me ? Are you clairvoyant or something ?
*shrug* How on earth is that relevant ? You want me to list how many years I've been dancing so we can have a p***ing match or something ? LOL. Get over yourself.
Whilst you found my admittedly strong opinion 'selfish' and seemed to think it indicated I thought the world 'revolved around me', lets remember it's just an opinion and we're talking about a class at a freestyle that is a regular one for me, and that I did actually attend in my local area.
On the other hand, I wonder what words would you use to describe someone who had a similarly strong opinion about a freestyle class where they didn't know the freestyle, history or area and that matched my number of posts on the subject ? LOL. Want to make some suggestions ?
If you go back and read what I've actually posted, you will find that I've never said that I know the area, or many of the locals better than you. Or indeed, what the majority of opinion on the night in question was. I'm not clairvoyant, and you read only what you want to read.
I've also said (several times) that personally, I would prefer no class. And also that I would freely accept, or even expect, that the majority of people (particularly those on this forum, but also probably at many freestyles, and yes, that includes yours) would prefer there to be no class.
Are you clear now?? Would you like me to try to repeat that in words of one syllable so that you can understand?
What I've said, several times, this being the last, is that sometimes, the majority aren't right, that there will be a minority that would like a class, and, is that really such a bad thing? And the relevance of attending freestyles in a wide area, is that I understand the above, because I've seen it in many places. I don't need to have a pissing contest, I'm quite happy with how far, and how high I can get.
So, for the last time (yes, really!), I'm of the opinion that I don't like classes (or indeed anything else) that breaks the flow of a freestyle night. But, there are those that do (and I'm willing to put money that I don't have, that this includes people in your area - and yes, they may well be in a minority), and, since these people exist, is it not reasonable and fair to cater for them?
Yes, there are class nights that specifically cater to those that want to attend classes. And for those people, like yourself, that can **** high and long when it comes to dancing, a class might not be needed, or even wanted. But for people new to dancing, a short (possibly fun!) class might help them get into the swing of things. Occasionally, an icebreaker class can get a previously empty dance floor (and I'm talking generally, obviously not at YOUR venue which you know much better than me) filled. And also, where people do try to get new friends into dancing, by taking them along to a Saturday night, rather than to a (possibly) more intimidating week-day class, where there's a short class, and the rest of the night is generally a more relaxed atmosphere, a beginners class might give someone there for the first time (and, from my ability to **** high and long, I've seen this on a number of occasions) a chance to 'have a small go', which may get them up dancing on the night, and bring them back to dancing in general - which I'm sure you have to agree would be a good thing.
So, now do you understand what I'm saying? Which has nothing to do with the specifics of YOUR freestyle night, but with respect to freestyle nights in general. And why, while I would prefer there not to be one (and while I'm quite capable of being selfish myself about many things), I'm prepared to give up part of the night for those not quite as capable as pissing as high and far as I am.
Last edited by TheTramp; 25th-November-2008 at 04:40 AM.
One last final point.
Having gone back for a quick look through this thread, apart from yours and my posts, there are 7 other people, all experienced dancers, none of whom would benefit from a short, fun class at freestyle, who have posted.
And ALL of them are in favour of a class at a freestyle night (and, to the best of my knowledge, none of them know your area either, just to make that clear).
I'm still absolutely positive that the majority of people here wouldn't actually want a class, but I'm equally positive that the majority here are prepared to make allowances for those people that do (Man, this smiley is definitely getting over-used in this thread).
Can I just say, I'm quite as to why you're all getting so worked-up about it?
I don't have a strong opinion on these - I usually don't get to a freestyle early enough anyway. But if I did, I'd say that the "pro" arguments outweigh the "anti" arguments.
It's not like dance-interruption things (e.g. competitions, cabarets) - these do annoy me. But icebreaker classes early on, they're fine.
I'd (hope I can) include myself in the "doesn't need a class before freestyle" camp, but I often enjoy doing them anyway!
Sure, I usually don't gain much in the way of insight from them but I might meet someone I enjoy dancing with. At the very least it can be entertainingly social, which is hardly a bad thing.
Granted, if I have something on earlier I doubt I'd rush just to make a class. If I don't though I ask myself this question: "What else would I be doing with the extra time I'd have if I didn't go to the class?". If there's no reason not to go then it seems like a no-brainer to me.
Then again, I am unusual.....
Nope, I have read exactly what you have written above. You weren't there, and you don't know the prevailing opinion. Makes it all the more surprizing you keep writing this drivel tho don't it ?
Oh Gawd. Don't be so childish.
I have also attended freestyles in a wide area, I also understand the above because I've seen the opposite in many places. So that means what exactly ? LOL
Of course, but it doesn't have to be at every single freestyle does it ?
Those people that want lessons still have the ample number of lesson nights during the week and sunday. They'll still have all the theme freestyles with lessons. There are even some plain freestyles that already have lessons not to far away.
There is no need to have a plain lesson at this particular plain freestyle, those that want lessons are already well catered for, and since a majority do indeed not want it, it shouldn't happen. How hard is that to understand ? Sometimes the customer is right. Not every freestyle has to have a lesson. It's not a law ya know
You are such a samaritan
So when you said you were "Talking on behalf of the 60" you weren't talking about the 60 I mentioned at the freestyle I attended in Bournemouth then , you were talking about some random 60 at some random freestyle elsewhere then ? Gimme me a break.
You know friggin' well you were commenting on the freestyle I attended. You also know you've been made to look a bit of a pratt since you weren't there and now your backtracking. *shrug*
Yes, and I respect all of their opinions. I respect your general opinion on icebreaker classes. Funnily enough without managing to accuse you of being selfish for having the opinion.
What I don't respect is your ability to know the opinion of the dancers at a freestyle I attended in an area you don't frequent and have no knowledge of, better than me. I would not dream of telling you I knew the opinions of the dancers at a freestyle I didn't attend, but you attended in Scotland better than you. That would just be colossal arrogance.
Last edited by TA Guy; 25th-November-2008 at 12:13 PM.
My experience of ice breakers is that in general they do exactly that - break the ice and I would love to continue to run them. However, the anti class feeling always appears stronger and definitely more vocal, which is a shame as I do not think it actually detracts from the freestyle experience.
TA Guy, can I just correct you about the Totton freestyle. The Howard & Nicola class was not our first freestyle, it was actually our 4th one and numbers had gradually increased at each event we ran. We also ran ice breaker classes which were 20 mins in length and over by 8.45pm. Yes, we did stop them because although many people actaully liked them for reasons outlined in other posts, the people who did not, were very vocal and negative. You are quite right that numbers dropped off (never to 30 or 40 as you said) and the last couple had about 100 in attendance. I think it important to point out that Mojive started to offer free freestyles at the Mo'Club from May onwards when ever we ran our event. Also, we had to move the event to the 3rd Sat of the month which also then clashed with other big freestyles and we also then became the 3rd event in the month at the same venue.
One reason that people go to freestyles is to catch up with people they do not see often enough. They do not join in the class, but are quite happy finding a seat, getting prepared, buying a drink and chatting while it is on.
Not participating does not necessarily mean 'against'.
Tell you what, when you want to argue the points I've actually made, then I'll come back and play with you. Until then, I've had enough of pointing out that I actually agree with you generally about icebreaker classes, agree that I don't know the dancers in your area, agree that the majority probably don't want them but merely disagree with the way you've stated our opinion....
Where I dance some operators do icebreakers (e.g. Strictly Ceroc, Ceroclive) and some don't (e.g. the various Leroc organisations in the Bristol area).
People differ in terms of liking them or not but I've not encountered strong feelings either way (until reading this thread).
Overall I think the response is positive. Some who are used to ceroc enjoy the leroc freestyles because there's no icebreaker, some from Bristol think the icebreaker is a nice idea. And those who don't like them tend to arrive about 9pm or later so they don't do them. We all seem to rub along fine thankfully.
Personally, I've been going to freestyles for a few years and I quite like them. [As one example, I got a basket variation that I liked from Marc Foster when he did a short intro lesson at Evesham which my regular dance partners would agree features a lot in my repertoire.] But I wouldn't decide to go or not go anywhere based on whether or not there's an icebreaker.
I think the icebreaker class is a good idea as long as it's short and finished before 9 pm. (I like to join in part way through when I arrive so that I can vet potential dance partners for later!)
The one thing guaranteed to put me off a return trip to a venue is an icebreaker class that started late and ran past 9 pm.
Daisy
(An Icy Little Flower)
We have to agree to disagree then
I would never vote in favour of an icebreaker class at a non-theme plain freestyle. I tend to get there relatively early when I can, I do that to dance. If I want to learn, I would go to a lesson night. It's not like there is a shortage of them down here
Despite my spat with Trampy, I do however appreciate others have different opinions. I can see the benefits of the 'icebreaker' part. To me whether the benefits outweighed the disadvantages would depend quite a lot on the local demographic, how mature the franchise was, how well the faces knew each other, what percentage were newbies, what percentage were veterans etc. In this particular geographical/MJ area, there is a history of freestyles, very popular freestyles as you know, without classes and a high percentage of veteran dancers who already know each other and come just to dance. It is not something we are used to, and I would argue, not something the majority want right now. That may change in time, but I genuinely think I am presenting the majority opinion in this area (what was the mojive area) at this time.
Wow, I really don't remember that many, but I apologise for getting the numbers so badly wrong anyway. You have to know
Regarding Totton, I, of course, don't know exactly how many complained or who they were. In the case of your Totton class I actually didn't complain. Neither did anyone on any table I sat at as far as I know. Yet it popped up in conversation and I don't remember anyone being in favour. So it wasn't just a vocal group, some of us were against, but quietly
In any case, speaking for myself, I do appreciate you listening to your customers in this case and removing the class. That doesn't always happen.
I'm also looking forward to Minstead on Friday. Should be a cracker.
There is also the difference between "want" and "need". There are shy people who need the chance to "break the ice" in a class to feel confident enough to ask for a dance. The "ice breaker" class does do what it says on the tin. Dropping those classes may have long term consequeces,
This is another example of where a properly maintained comprehensive database could detect consequences not perceptible to attendees, but nevertheless important. 1/2% on a growth rate may seem trivial, but when it is compound and the period is weeks rather than a year it may make a vital difference.
If I were an organiser, I would see much more benefits to having an ice breaker class than not having one. (As has been stated - a short, basic class or short themed class)
As a dancer, there are advantages and disadvantages to both formats that (in my opinion) balance out each other -
Ice breaker:
- everyone is lined up nicely; I can see who is here and who isn't with ease.
- I can see new people and get an idea of how they dance.
- I get to warm up with no expectations of getting everything right; I can 'get my eye in' and slip gently into the mind-set for dancing.
- if I arrive late or am running late, I can take time to change my shoes, get a drink, and get set up for a night's dancing without feeling I'm missing out on some dancing.
- I know there will be at least three moves (being taught) I can now lead in freestyle that most followers should be able to follow with ease, no matter their level.
- If I am not interested in taking the class, I have some time to socialise without it taking away from dancing time.
No icebreaker:
- more dancing.
- ... erm... that's it. but it's enough of an "it" to balance out all the above.
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