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Thread: Icebreaker classes

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    Icebreaker classes

    Moved from the "Feedback on Club nights" thread - David


    With regard to the lesson, obviously I wasn't there, and, I have to admit from a personal preference, I'd prefer not to have one at all, or at the very most, a quick 15 minute one, which is what we do at freestyles in Scotland.

    However, there are some people who do enjoy the lesson, and some people who bring along friends to freestyles who've never danced before, or have been once or twice in recent weeks.

    It is a bit of an icebreaker, and, usually, the more experienced dancers either turn up at 9pm (or in fact, much later!), or just join in to warm up (and to avoid standing around shivering maybe).

    In fact, I'm impressed, or maybe astounded that there were 210 people inside the venue by 9pm. People there must be very keen!!
    Last edited by David Bailey; 24th-November-2008 at 03:06 PM.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    With regard to the lesson, obviously I wasn't there, and, I have to admit from a personal preference, I'd prefer not to have one at all, or at the very most, a quick 15 minute one, which is what we do at freestyles in Scotland.

    However, there are some people who do enjoy the lesson, and some people who bring along friends to freestyles who've never danced before, or have been once or twice in recent weeks.

    It is a bit of an icebreaker, and, usually, the more experienced dancers either turn up at 9pm (or in fact, much later!), or just join in to warm up (and to avoid standing around shivering maybe).
    I agree with the Tramp. The icebreaker lesson does just that, it breaks the ice. People get to meet each other and get a bit of a warm up too.

    Also, it avoids that situation where you have to be the first couple on the floor. The freestyle starts with the end of the lesson.

    I try to make my icebreakers no more than 20 mins long. People seem to enjoy the icebreakers and I often get asked what time the icebreaker will start by people who want to do it. I also get asked what time it will finish by people who want to miss the icebreaker. It's always difficult to be specific as I start the icebreaker when there's enough people to start the lesson and there's not going to be a great imbalance of the sexes. Sometimes I find myself counting the ladies and find there's something like 22 women and 7 men - I wait for a few more men and then see another 6 women come in the door! Nowadays I always aim to start the icebreaker at 8.15pm and will always start it by 8.30pm: this means the latest start for freestyle is 8.50pm.
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 23rd-November-2008 at 05:10 PM.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    I always get the impression that Icebreakers are more for the benefit of teachers/franchises than the dancers. I dunno why, maybe they feel guilty about charging more for a freestyle night than a lesson night or something Certainly there always seems to be more people waiting for the ruddy thing to finish than actually take part.

    I am sure there are people who like freestyles to have icebreaker classes. And in areas where that is a sizeable majority, no problems. Down here, I would argue that is not the prevailing feeling. There are oddleplexes of lesson nights down here, and I would argue the majority, vast majority, of dancers who go to freestyles down here, go to dance, not to have a lesson.

    I dunno, maybe it's not politically correct, but I feel by the time you start attending freestyles, everybody is past the hand holding stage of an icebreaker class. Or, if you are a complete beginner and attend a freestyle, then you obviously have serious cajones and don't need hand holding anyway. Deciding to have an icebreaker class because "somebody might bring a friend or two who's new" doesn't sound like a reason to have an icebreaker class to me. It sounds like a reason why the person who brought them should have taken them to a lesson night instead.

    Besides. Wasn't there a thread about this ? Didn't everybody and there dog say icebreaker classes were a complete waste of dance time ? I seem to remember that. Or maybe I'd like to remember that
    Last edited by TA Guy; 23rd-November-2008 at 11:53 PM.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Certainly there always seems to be more people waiting for the ruddy thing to finish than actually take part.
    And how many of those people are there at the actual start of the class? Or have they turned up at some point during the class, and yeah, of course they're waiting for it to finish then?

    Of course most people on the forum are going to vote for no class at a freestyle. A fair number of people on the forum would vote for no class at class nights too (and yeah, I fall into this group for a personal preference)! But then, it's hardly representative of the beginners out there, is it (and we've had that discussion too!).

    Some people like a quick class. If it's known that it's going to be from 8:30 to 9:00, then those who don't want to do the class can just turn up at 9:00. What's the problem?

    (I'll be there about 10:30, I'm too old for much more dancing than that these days anyhow).

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Besides. Wasn't there a thread about this ? Didn't everybody and there dog say icebreaker classes were a complete waste of dance time ? I seem to remember that. Or maybe I'd like to remember that
    I used to think like this too. And when I organised my own dances I didn't have an icebreaker because I agreed and didn't want one myself. The dancing rarely got going until about 8.45pm and the dancing was quite thin until well past 9pm. Most people arrived at around 9pm.

    So I tried putting on a lesson. People started to arrive for the lesson and things got off the ground much quicker. Some people actually come for the lesson. We still get those dancers who arrive after 9pm. They probably have no idea there was a lesson.

    So, my experience tells me that the lesson is good for the night and takes nothing away from those who arrive after 9pm.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I always get the impression that Icebreakers are more for the benefit of teachers/franchises than the dancers. I dunno why, maybe they feel guilty about charging more for a freestyle night than a lesson night or something Certainly there always seems to be more people waiting for the ruddy thing to finish than actually take part.

    I am sure there are people who like freestyles to have icebreaker classes. And in areas where that is a sizeable majority, no problems. Down here, I would argue that is not the prevailing feeling. There are oddleplexes of lesson nights down here, and I would argue the majority, vast majority, of dancers who go to freestyles down here, go to dance, not to have a lesson...
    There are always more dancers than beginners.

    Every freestyle I attend I find people that have never attended an MJ night before. If 20% of the attendees want a lesson and less than 15% of the night is devoted to a lesson that is not too bad. It tends to be the experienced dancers that travel furthest and could not get there for a lesson if they wanted to.

    As I have posted C.C. freestyles have just gone lesson free and I am watching results.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    And how many of those people are there at the actual start of the class? Or have they turned up at some point during the class, and yeah, of course they're waiting for it to finish then?
    I get your point, but my point is you are still making people stand around and wait. That's just not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Of course most people on the forum are going to vote for no class at a freestyle. A fair number of people on the forum would vote for no class at class nights too (and yeah, I fall into this group for a personal preference)! But then, it's hardly representative of the beginners out there, is it (and we've had that discussion too!).
    Yeah, I get that. As I said, there are reasons why it would work. None of those apply down here.

    It's not necessary here. No need to cheese off anyone. There are plenty of lesson nights so why cheese off the 'dancers only' at the freestyles?

    I get that maybe some teachers/franchises see it as a way of boosting numbers. Maybe there aren't enough 'dancers only' to go round, so they introduce a lesson at freestyles, beginners are attracted and 'hey bingo' the numbers at freestyles go up. That's not necessary down here, and in fact would be counter-productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I used to think like this too. And when I organised my own dances I didn't have an icebreaker because I agreed and didn't want one myself. The dancing rarely got going until about 8.45pm and the dancing was quite thin until well past 9pm. Most people arrived at around 9pm.

    So I tried putting on a lesson. People started to arrive for the lesson and things got off the ground much quicker. Some people actually come for the lesson. We still get those dancers who arrive after 9pm. They probably have no idea there was a lesson.
    Freestyles may not burst into life at 8:00pm, but they tend to get going fairly quick down here. As I said, and don't quote me exactly, but towards the end of the lesson I counted 30 couples doing the lesson, and around 150 waiting out. That is not good. In fact it's extremely bad. You need to consider those waiting out sitting around getting bored as well as the few who do the lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    There are always more dancers than beginners.

    Every freestyle I attend I find people that have never attended an MJ night before. If 20% of the attendees want a lesson and less than 15% of the night is devoted to a lesson that is not too bad. It tends to be the experienced dancers that travel furthest and could not get there for a lesson if they wanted to.

    As I have posted C.C. freestyles have just gone lesson free and I am watching results.
    Yeah, that's true, but why is it necessary ?
    Why cheese off even a small number of 'dancers' when there is a lesson night every weekday (save Fri) for those that want lessons ?

    The problem is you have two crowds, 'lessons wanters', and 'dancers only'. I am sure there is some crossover, but by and large, the two groups want different things.
    As it stands there are two different types of nights for these two crowds, lesson nights and freestyles. It is, of course, extremely tempting and in the short term maybe very profitable to 'mix and match' these nights to try and attempt to get both groups attending both types of nights.
    In some areas I am sure it works, especially if those coming thru the system don't know any better. Down here, it isn't necessary. There are ample of both nights and ample numbers to fill both. By mixing both types together, all you are doing is producing one homogenous night type that cheeses off a lot of people.

    Freestyles are for dancing, lessons nights are for lessons. Very simple, very easy to understand. It works. Don't screw with it!!!!!

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Some of the freestyle lessons introduced Ceroc members to new experiences. At the Corn exchange we had 'double trouble", co-pilot, strolls, foursomes, choreographed routines e.g. 'big spender'. These filled the love-hate spectrum for attendees, and certainly in my case. They did give me some of my great memorable moments. Much as I hated a couple of them I would pay that price to repeat those I loved.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Some of the freestyle lessons introduced Ceroc members to new experiences. At the Corn exchange we had 'double trouble", co-pilot, strolls, foursomes, choreographed routines e.g. 'big spender'. These filled the love-hate spectrum for attendees, and certainly in my case. They did give me some of my great memorable moments. Much as I hated a couple of them I would pay that price to repeat those I loved.
    True. That has happened to me. The first freestyle Ceroc did down at Totton a few months ago here had Howard and Nicola. For me, it was worth putting up with the lesson (had about 10 couples in the lesson!) just to get a dance with the Goddess Nicola later
    [and actually, as an aside, she danced with lots of people, as did Howard. I thought that was pretty good. Some teachers don't bother].

    It was a great night and, I dunno exactly how many, but I would guess close to 250 turned up. It was packed in the end. But people were there because it was Ceroc's first freestyle at Totton and something new for most of them, not because of Howard and Nicola or any lesson. The lesson actually put people off coming again. Eventually Ceroc dropped the lesson, but it was too late, people had choice down here, a lot of it, and they choose against a freestyle polluted by a lesson. The last couple of Ceroc freestyles at Totton had about 30-40 people. Currently, both Dance Yourself Dizzy and Mojive averages 120-180 for their monthly freestyles at the same venue without lessons. It is, of course, far more complex than saying 'the lesson did it', but it was an important factor.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So, my experience tells me that the lesson is good for the night and takes nothing away from those who arrive after 9pm.
    I don't attend any icebreakers but when I turn up early it is better to a see a class than a empty hall.

    The last 2 times I have been to a freestlye with somebody else, on both occasions we had to go along early to so they could attend the class. One has been MJing for three years and other for over two years. As far as they are concerned its helps them enjoy the evening more.

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    Re: Icebreaker classes

    I'm not so worried about there being a short (30mins max) fun lesson at the start of a freestyle, however this can cause problems when lots of beginners turn up thinking they're going to get a beginner lesson. This happened at a new Friday 'freestyle' venue where I sometimes go.

    Beginners turned up, couldn't cope with the lesson (it was probably aimed at an improver/intermediate level) so requested the freestyle evening was turned into nearer a standard ceroc night with a 30mins beginner class, followed by freestyle with a beginner practise class. All v well as the more experienced dancers didn't generally turn up til later, until the beginners lesson started later and later, overrunning and then eating into freestyle time.

    So it's no longer seen as a freestyle evening. It's quite a distance from me, and as far as I've heard, only really attracts the stronger intermediate+/advanced dancers on the last of every month, when there's an advanced class after the beginners one.

    Instead, they've now started a true freestyle evening once a month - no classes, but in my view not as nice or large a venue as the original one that had been planned. Only been once and found it lacking in the numbers I was expecting, but did find that not having a class meant there were no beginners at all (unless they were v confident beginners as I couldn't tell).

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    Re: Icebreaker classes

    I used to find the icebreaker classes useful, but I'd say it's essential that they are short, start on time and are advertised clearly. It's not a class, it's a way of getting some people dancing rather than having people sitting around watching an empty floor.
    (unless it's a theme class which is being used as an introduction to the style of the freestyle).

    Workshop starting early pre-freestyle is fine, but don't try and confuse the two...

    Sean

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I get your point, but my point is you are still making people stand around and wait. That's just not good.

    Yeah, I get that. As I said, there are reasons why it would work. None of those apply down here.

    It's not necessary here. No need to cheese off anyone. There are plenty of lesson nights so why cheese off the 'dancers only' at the freestyles?

    Yeah, that's true, but why is it necessary ?
    Why cheese off even a small number of 'dancers' when there is a lesson night every weekday (save Fri) for those that want lessons ?

    The problem is you have two crowds, 'lessons wanters', and 'dancers only'. I am sure there is some crossover, but by and large, the two groups want different things.
    As it stands there are two different types of nights for these two crowds, lesson nights and freestyles. It is, of course, extremely tempting and in the short term maybe very profitable to 'mix and match' these nights to try and attempt to get both groups attending both types of nights.
    In some areas I am sure it works, especially if those coming thru the system don't know any better. Down here, it isn't necessary. There are ample of both nights and ample numbers to fill both. By mixing both types together, all you are doing is producing one homogenous night type that cheeses off a lot of people.

    Freestyles are for dancing, lessons nights are for lessons. Very simple, very easy to understand. It works. Don't screw with it!!!!!
    I still don't understand your problem. An advertised short (very definitely beginners) class at the start of the evening. Freestyle afterwards. Those not wanting to do the class come along at a time after the class has finished. Everyone is happy - those that just want to dance come a little bit later. Those that do want a class come in time for it.

    There were apparently 60 people in the class at the freestyle. That's about 30% of the people that were in the hall at the END of the class (and again, how many of those sitting out came AFTER the class had started, and might have joined in if they'd been on time for it?), going on your approximate numbers. What right to you have to suggest that those 30% of people shouldn't have a class, if that's what they want? I feel that you're being just a tad selfish here mate. As I keep saying, turn up at 9pm. You won't even see the class. And those people that do want one, will also be happy

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    Re: Icebreaker classes

    The reason alot of places offer icebreaker lessons is due to Tax. Freestyle icebreaker lessons can be classes as educational and are tax exempt.

    One way venues can and do get around this is to make taxi dancers available for one to one's.


    As a dancer, I very often dont get to the icebreaker. This is mainly due to the distances I have to travel to get to decent venues and dances (execpt mine of course ).

    I think Icebreakers are great for warm ups, saying hello to people and just sometimes learning a new move. The 15-20 min timeline is about right, People who dont want to take part then dont have to wait around too long.

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    There were apparently 60 people in the class at the freestyle. That's about 30% of the people that were in the hall at the END of the class (and again, how many of those sitting out came AFTER the class had started, and might have joined in if they'd been on time for it?)
    By the same token, I would guess that many of that 60 were doing it because it was there only choice and whilst it stopped them getting cold and/or bored, they would much rather have just been plain old dancing.

    On the other hand, what difference does it make if some of the 150 arrived after the class had started ? They were still getting cold, still getting bored, and still were being stopped from dancing. This is not a good thing ya know!

    The plain fact is that in this one case, the vast majority didn't want the class. That should be enough to get it dumped... I hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    going on your approximate numbers. What right to you have to suggest that those 30% of people shouldn't have a class, if that's what they want? I feel that you're being just a tad selfish here mate.
    I have as much right to vent my opinion as anyone else. That is what 'right' I have dotchaknow

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    As I keep saying, turn up at 9pm. You won't even see the class. And those people that do want one, will also be happy
    Whilst you might, for whatever reason, be happy to turn up at 9pm or later, since I am paying for four hours dancing, I'll turn up when I like, thanks

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Is that anything like the vast majority of people who don't like the bongo song (see the poll about this that I can't be bothered to look up, but was quite amusing)? Or is it the few people that happened to be around you? It's amazing how 'me and the people on my table' become 'the vast majority'. I'll also point out that just because the vast majority of people don't want something, that's no reason to stop doing it, see, that's usually what they call discrimination.

    The (obvious, but I'll still spell it out to you) difference between whether or not they were there when it started, or whether they arrived while it was taking place, is that if they had been there when it started, they may well have taken place. Some of those people might not have realised that there would be a class, and may turn up earlier next time in order to make it. You just never know (well, unless you talked personally to all the 150 people that were sitting out).

    And of course you have the right to give your opinion. I don't think that there should be a class is totally within your rights to say. It's just the selfish way you've said it, without any thought about what other people want, which raised my heckles. And, please bear in mind that I actually agree with you. I don't want a class either. I am just prepared to accept that there might actually be people that do, and as such, they have every right to be provided for as well.

    No. What you're paying for is 3.5 hours of dancing, and 30 minutes of class. Since that's what is being provided. You may think that you're paying for 4 hours of dancing, but you would be wrong. And of course, you can turn up when you like. Just be prepared to deal with the fact that they are catering for more people than just you, and just imagine that there are other people, and the world doesn't revolve solely around you

    Oh, I do so love these fun discussions

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Is that anything like the vast majority of people who don't like the bongo song (see the poll about this that I can't be bothered to look up, but was quite amusing)? Or is it the few people that happened to be around you? It's amazing how 'me and the people on my table' become 'the vast majority'.
    The plain fact is, you weren't there. So best stop guessing ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I'll also point out that just because the vast majority of people don't want something, that's no reason to stop doing it, see, that's usually what they call discrimination.
    Who's saying anything about stopping doing it ? There are many Ceroc lesson nights nearby, more than freestyle nights. No one is suggesting a stop to lessons. Jeez.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    The (obvious, but I'll still spell it out to you) difference between whether or not they were there when it started, or whether they arrived while it was taking place, is that if they had been there when it started, they may well have taken place.
    I have never disputed that.
    By the same token, some may not want to take part, but anyway, regardless of when people arrive, why should these people suffer just because they miss the start of the class ?
    It's not fun sitting in a cold room getting bored waiting for a pointless (to them) class to finish.

    All I am saying, is that as someone who appears to think these icebreaker classes should happen regardless of what the customers think, you should maybe try asking one day ?
    Just a suggestion. If you've ever done that, fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Some of those people might not have realised that there would be a class, and may turn up earlier next time in order to make it. You just never know (well, unless you talked personally to all the 150 people that were sitting out).
    Yes, I suppose that is possible. It didn't happen at a near freestyle, Totton, where Ceroc dumped the class because of this, but you never know, pigs might fly!!!

    Do I know all 150 people ? Of course not, about 100 prolly, tho not all to have regular conversations with. But I do know my area and the people that dance in it pretty well. Don't you ?

    By the same token since you seem so keen to comment on it, how many people did you talk to from this Bournemouth freestyle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    And of course you have the right to give your opinion. I don't think that there should be a class is totally within your rights to say. It's just the selfish way you've said it, without any thought about what other people want, which raised my heckles. And, please bear in mind that I actually agree with you. I don't want a class either. I am just prepared to accept that there might actually be people that do, and as such, they have every right to be provided for as well.
    Well, I admire you for being over-sensitive on behalf of these 'other people' you seem to claim to represent But I am sure they are capable of giving their own opinion. Like I said, no where have I suggested lessons be done away with. They have a choice of around 20 on any given week within 0-45 mins. There is simply no need to pollute the freestyles with them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    No. What you're paying for is 3.5 hours of dancing, and 30 minutes of class. Since that's what is being provided. You may think that you're paying for 4 hours of dancing, but you would be wrong.
    And of course, you can turn up when you like. Just be prepared to deal with the fact that they are catering for more people than just you, and just imagine that there are other people, and the world doesn't revolve solely around you
    Please, just because I disagree with you, don't start throwing words like 'selfish' or phrases like 'revolve solely around you'. If you have an argument, make it, there's no need to resort to that kind of thing. I am simply putting my point of view as everybody, including you and me, are entitled to. Thanks.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 24th-November-2008 at 10:28 PM.

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    Re: Icebreaker classes

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Freestyles are for dancing, lessons nights are for lessons. Very simple, very easy to understand. It works. Don't screw with it!!!!!
    Woah. Surely many lessons have freestyle components in as well (as someone who would sometimes skip the lessons and just attend the freestyle I'm well aware of this)? So then lesson nights are as much for freestyle as lessons. Indeed one of the thing that puts me off lessons over here a lot is the lack of the freestyle component.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Also, it avoids that situation where you have to be the first couple on the floor. The freestyle starts with the end of the lesson.
    Yup, I been to nights where it's an empty floor before the lesson and full afterwards. You could argue it is because more people show up while the lesson was going on but I haven't always seen that as the case.

    I used to always go to the Icebreaker when I'd started and was disappointed the couple of times they didn't run one. Post the point where I cared about it as much it would generally just mean I'd do it if I had got there on time (and I'd still find it quite enjoyable) or, more likely, I'd rock up after it.

    In the Swing stuff I'm doing over here they tend to have an hour long introduction lesson every freestyle (where they generally teach the same stuff). After learning what I could from the first few I just started rocking up at 9pm, after the lesson, I don't feel like I've lost an hour of dancing to it or anything.

    So yeah, Icebreaker classes are fine .

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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    You're right. I wasn't there. On the other hand, I do know that there were 60 people that did take part in the class. I'm merely speaking up on behalf of those people. And from the experiences I've had with freestyles all round the world. As I've said in just about every post I've made so far, I'm sure that there are people that do want the class. And I'm sure that there are people that don't want the class. And yes, I have spoken to people about it. And some people say they do... you know where this is going

    I also know that almost all freestyles I've been to have an icebreaker class at the beginning. Now, you've got to wonder why that would be. Maybe it's because the people who organise them are trying to cater in some way for all the people who go. And, as I've also said before, I don't want them. I don't want classes at class nights. But that's just me.

    And, since that's how your posts come across to me, I feel perfectly within my rights to use those words. Similarly, if you want to use words like 'interfering busybody' in your posts about me, feel free If you don't want people to use those words, then you should try to avoid coming across in that way.

    Anyhow, it's another of those forum things, when you have one opinion, I have another (although, actually as I've also said several times, my actual opinion is the same as yours, I just object to the way you of our opinion across), and we are now just repeating ourselves. So, for the benefit of the rest of the forum, I'll now shut up, unless you have any new points to make, in which case I'd love to reply

  20. #20
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    Re: Feedback on Club nights

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    You're right. I wasn't there...
    I accept your apology.

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