Bridging the gap from Beginner to Intermediate.

[David Bailey]

If I may sway the conversation a little, - if I am to stay in the beginner class, - what should I be looking to get out of the beginner refresher lessons, - and how should I go about getting it?

There are two aspects to dance (well, there's loads, but let's ignore most of them) which are relevant: Form and Technique.

• Form is the steps (the moves) - basically the stuff you get taught at a Ceroc class.
• Technique is the way you move - posture, leading, connection, footwork, frame, all that stuff.

You've (presumably) got the form locked-down, so now is a good time to work on the technique side of things - not sure how's best for you to get that though...

Another suggestion: start breaking-down moves into component steps, and start mix-and-matching those component steps in your dancing.

Another suggestion: if you can, get someone to video you dancing, so you can see how you look.

[bigdjiver]

If I may sway the conversation a little, - if I am to stay in the beginner class, - what should I be looking to get out of the beginner refresher lessons, - and how should I go about getting it? As I said earlier, but I don't actually feel like i'm learning anything new during this time.

I have joined in quite a few refresher classes when there are many surplus ladies. The standard and content has varied enormously, so I cannot advise you on your local class.

The general advice is that if you want something ask for it. At worst they will say no. If they are not meeting your needs it is likely that they are not meeting the needs of others either. The only way this will change is if someone says something.

MJ is different from most other dances in that there is no standard ideal to aim for. Within wide limits everybody has the opportunity to make their own dance. This does not suit those who like rigid standards, but for those that love freedom of expression and novelty it is a continuing joy.

[Phil_dB]

Thanks for your help.

Yes, - technique is what I would really like to develop.

The side to side stepping performed before you intially step back, i've even been practicing that at home to try and improve my style. I've started 'dancing' more, rather than plodding my feet from A to B to C, - by sliding the foot which hasn't got as much weight on it at the time, & moving my body slightly, between steps. I don't keep my free arm just hanging down by the side of me, i've started letting it go free, - I was told "oh, you're adding a bit of style now!" - actually I just had my free arm out to help with balance (for example when turning 180 degrees 'to block' on the yo yo).

Connection and tension i've been very conscious of, - and I've been asking for feedback on this from teachers (got good feedback). I try to be as empathetic towards my partner as possible, attempting to stay at an appropriate distance wherever she goes to in order to lead her the best I can.

We touched upon frame during my first workshop, - I'd never heard of this before then, - it was never spoken of in any lesson, - it made so much sense, and explained why certain moves are performed the way they are in order to move the follow's frame in certain directions.

Posture, I haven't given much conscious thought to.

But all this stuff is what i'm very eager to be learning more about and practice!

As for videoing, - yes I would like to see myself in order to learn from, - although i'd feel totally vain and embarrased about asking someone to video me dancing

[Martin]

If I may sway the conversation a little, - if I am to stay in the beginner class, - what should I be looking to get out of the beginner refresher lessons, - and how should I go about getting it? As I said earlier, but I don't actually feel like i'm learning anything new during this time.

A beginner refresher class is only as good as the teacher.
If the teacher is not offering you advice, tips and tricks and is just getting you to repeat what you have already learnt, time to move on.

Keep attending the regular beginner class and be brave and go for the intermediate in rotation - OR badger the teacher in beginner refresher to give you feedback each week.

Not every beginner refresher teacher is as clued up in "technique" as some of the wise old souls on the forum. So this may or may not work for you.

As for videoing, - yes I would like to see myself in order to learn from, - although i'd feel totally vain and embarrased about asking someone to video me dancing

Get over it... get the video out... you are not being vain, you are trying to improve.

[ant]

If I may sway the conversation a little, - if I am to stay in the beginner class, - what should I be looking to get out of the beginner refresher lessons, - and how should I go about getting it? As I said earlier, but I don't actually feel like i'm learning anything new during this time.

In my opinion you should use the time to question every thing about the moves being taught - What other sequences can you design using those moves, what other moves would you introduce into the sequences being taught and where - Are you using the correct footwork - Can you cope when the follower does not do what you expect and why do you think the problem occurred - consider whether your lead was gentle but firm each time you led a move or did you need to give a pull to effect the move-do you think your footwork was crisp or did you need to fudge your footwork.

Then in the freestyle use your own sequences (not those you have been taught) with reasonable changes of the sequences you have choreographed and you can comfortably do that for the evening with a variety of dancers, then it is time to move up.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I've started 'dancing' more, rather than plodding my feet from A to B to C, - by sliding the foot which hasn't got as much weight on it at the time, & moving my body slightly, between steps. I don't keep my free arm just hanging down by the side of me, i've started letting it go free, - I was told "oh, you're adding a bit of style now!" - actually I just had my free arm out to help with balance (for example when turning 180 degrees 'to block' on the yo yo).

You sound better, or potentially better, than some competition winners I've seen

I try to be as empathetic towards my partner as possible, attempting to stay at an appropriate distance wherever she goes to in order to lead her the best I can.

There are followers on here swooning right now

Posture, I haven't given much conscious thought to.

This is possibly one of the most important visual things to do as a dancer - and the thing I most need to improve.

As for videoing, - yes I would like to see myself in order to learn from, - although i'd feel totally vain and embarrased about asking someone to video me dancing

If you ask a dancer - they would love to help I am sure.

[Phil_dB]

Cheers Martin , and thanks everyone again, I appreciate you lot are well past the stage that I am currently, so its great that you can still empathise & remember what its like for with someone who is in such early stages of learning.

Great question ideas Ant, - most of those I would not have thought of asking myself.

Sequences, and transitioning moves into others differently is what I have thought about a bit, (ceroc spin straight after a yo yo for instance flows quite well).

There are some moves I don't bother using much in freestyle, shoulder drop I find a little mechanical, and I do not perform arm jives very often (this is obviously cutting down my already limited repetoire further!).

I was watching a great dancer the other day at the club, inbetween some fantastic moves, he was simply stepping side to side almost, moving his partner around (hard to explain) but it looked great. Simple, but stylish and very much in line with the track being played at the time.
I would like to be able to have this sort of freedom, - whereas at the moment, i'm simply performing move after move after move. Plus I don't have a clue what to do in a break (i'm sure all this will come in time).

You sound better, or potentially better, than some competition winners I've seen

The only competition dancers i've seen on youtube were amazing, so either you've seen some truely awful dancers elsewhere, or I'll take it that you're mocking me with sarcasm!

This is possibly one of the most important visual things to do as a dancer - and the thing I most need to improve.

I know absolutely nothing about posture, - I did ask the question a couple of weeks ago, - i was just told to keep my body upright

[bigdjiver]

... I do not perform arm jives very often ...

The arm jive, and other double handed moves, are very useful with beginners as they give more control.

Using the three variations of arm jive, (push spin and nelson) are ideal for getting across to a beginner lady that she must not anticipate. I sometimes also use the 'boogie down' version of the arm jive, where you bend the knees and go down "Twist" like. This lets you find out how playful a lady is, and whether she has flexible legs. This comes in useful when trying to assess how comfortable she is likely to be with some more advanced moves.

[ant]

Originally Posted by Phil_dB
Great question ideas Ant, - most of those I would not have thought of asking myself

.
You're welcome

Originally Posted by Phil_dB
I was watching a great dancer the other day at the club, inbetween some fantastic moves, he was simply stepping side to side almost, moving his partner around (hard to explain) but it looked great.

Sounds like they were doing WCS. Those guys have got what dancing is all about well taped. They don't do any work, they have conned all the best followers into doing that style, the followers make them look absolutely great and they just stand there taking all the applause.

Originally Posted by Phil_dB
There are some moves I don't bother using much in freestyle, shoulder drop I find a little mechanical, and I do not perform arm jives very often (this is obviously cutting down my already limited repetoire further!

Coming back on topic, the shoulder drop is used quite a lot in the intermediate class as a link move and I notice Bigd is giving you advise on the arm jives. There is no point learning loads of new moves, at best all it does is increase your choreography options, it doen't make you a better dancer.

[Andy McGregor]

The side to side stepping performed before you intially step back,

If you are being taught to step back at the same time as you lead your partner's back step you are being taught badly - especially if there's any kind mention of circles of a "semi" nature This double back step results in too great a distance between partners and makes it difficult for your partner to step straight forward as you are standing in their path. When you lead your partner's back-step you should apply compression into her hand and either stand still, step in place or step to the side. For most moves you will probably be stepping to the side, possibly slightly forward. Consider the "first move", as you lead your partner in her first back step you should try apply compression with your left hand at hip height as you lean into your partner's answering compression - as she starts to respond to the compression you should step to the left and sideways, possibly slightly forward - any amount of backwards is too much.

Once you have mastered this side-step you will be on the road to dancing like the guy below. He is simply getting out of his partners path so that he can lead her straight forward rather than slightly off course.

I was watching a great dancer the other day at the club, inbetween some fantastic moves, he was simply stepping side to side almost, moving his partner around (hard to explain) but it looked great. Simple, but stylish and very much in line with the track being played at the time.

It is great that you've noticed that you are missing the breaks. It means you already know where they are

[Phil_dB]

The arm jive, and other double handed moves, are very useful with beginners as they give more control.
Using the three variations of arm jive, (push spin and nelson) are ideal for getting across to a beginner lady that she must not anticipate. I sometimes also use the 'boogie down' version of the arm jive, where you bend the knees and go down "Twist" like. This lets you find out how playful a lady is, and whether she has flexible legs. This comes in useful when trying to assess how comfortable she is likely to be with some more advanced moves.

Nelson? I'm not sure what that is.
I know the Arm Jive, Arm Jive Push Spin, and the Arm Jive Swizzle !
Some girls do anticipate when I do all of those moves when taught in the lessons at least...

If you are being taught to step back at the same time as you lead your partner's back step you are being taught badly - especially if there's any kind mention of circles of a "semi" nature This double back step results in too great a distance between partners and makes it difficult for your partner to step straight forward as you are standing in their path. When you lead your partner's back-step you should apply compression into her hand and either stand still, step in place or step to the side. For most moves you will probably be stepping to the side, possibly slightly forward. Consider the "first move", as you lead your partner in her first back step you should try apply compression with your left hand at hip height as you lean into your partner's answering compression - as she starts to respond to the compression you should step to the left and sideways, possibly slightly forward - any amount of backwards is too much.
Once you have mastered this side-step you will be on the road to dancing like the guy below. He is simply getting out of his partners path so that he can lead her straight forward rather than slightly off course.
It is great that you've noticed that you are missing the breaks. It means you already know where they are

I have never been taught anything else but to step back at the same time as my partner. And yes, we're always taught the semi circle. I've never heard of stepping to the side at start of the dance. Even on the Beginners DVD instruction video, they always teach the initial stepping back thing? (I'm not saying what you've just said doesn't make any sense however).

Taking the First Move you've used as an example, i've been taught to - both step back, - and as I step forward again, to step slightly to the left hand side in order to ensure that the Follow will standing to my right hand side.

What you are describing does sounds like what this bloke was doing the other day as I tried to describe above however...

Yes, - I hear the breaks from time to time! My partner probably doesnt think i notice them as I mostly just continue to dance, although one the other day was so long, I just stopped and waited for the beat to start up again!

[Agente Secreto]

If you are being taught to step back at the same time as you lead your partner's back step you are being taught badly - especially if there's any kind mention of circles of a "semi" nature This double back step results in too great a distance between partners

Andy, I wondered when the old semi-circle would make an appearance! However, I also disagree with what you say. The double step back is perfectly achievable if you limit the size of the step and don't get to the point of locking your arms out.

Nelson? I'm not sure what that is.
I know the Arm Jive, Arm Jive Push Spin, and the Arm Jive Swizzle!

Swizzle = nelson in arm-jive terms. The other problem with MJ is a lack of consistency in naming, stepping, arm circling and all sorts of things which frankly have never stopped me having a good time

I have never been taught anything else but to step back at the same time as my partner. And yes, we're always taught the semi circle.

Phil for god's sake don't go back to your local venue and tell the teacher that teaching the double step back is a sign of bad teaching. It is perfectly OK as long as your step size is small enough. The semi-circle is a feature of the Ceroc world so if you dance at Ceroc venues it is taught - loads of threads that debate this to death on the forum just search for semi-circle.

I've never heard of stepping to the side at start of the dance. Even on the Beginners DVD instruction video, they always teach the initial stepping back thing? (I'm not saying what you've just said doesn't make any sense however).

Taking the First Move you've used as an example, i've been taught to - both step back, - and as I step forward again, to step slightly to the left hand side in order to ensure that the Follow will standing to my right hand side.

Personally I normally step diagonally backwards to clear the way for my partner (so a side step and back step combined) but what you explain above for the first move accomplishes the same thing by getting you out of the follow's way on the step together and allowing you to lead your follow in a straight line towards you and into your side.

Depending on the move (or how far the follow steps back herself) I will adjust what I do and may simply do a sidestep or even a forward step to compensate. You'll soon get to feel when this is right yourself as you get a few months more experience.

Of course I'm not a teacher or a formally trained dancer just an old guy having some fun on the floor.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance (although lacking in any formal qualification to do so)

[Lost Leader]

..... just an old guy having some fun on the floor.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance (although lacking in any formal qualification to do so)

Is it just me, or does that just sound somehow wrong?

[Andy McGregor]

Andy, I wondered when the old semi-circle would make an appearance! However, I also disagree with what you say. The double step back is perfectly achievable if you limit the size of the step and don't get to the point of locking your arms out.

As you seem to know so much, Mr Secreto, tell us all what is the point of the semi-circle and what the back-step is all about? You say you make is small. Why do it all all? Especially when you intend to lead a cross-body move?

[Gadget]

If you are being taught to step back at the same time as you lead your partner's back step you are being taught badly - especially if there's any kind mention of circles of a "semi" nature

Andy is wrong... again!

MJ is a 'swing' dance. Fairly recently heavy influences from "Blues", "WCS" and "Argentinian Tango" have slowed it down and smoothed it out, but the core 'look' of the dance is based upon an elasticity between partners: coming towards each other, extending out and coming in again. By stepping forward and not mirroring your partner's distance, you are changing the core dynamics of the dance and restricting the range of movements/contrast your dancing can contain.

The primary reason I can see for not teaching a stepping back when leading the follower to step back is that beginner followers tend to take too big a step back: This makes it easier to teach, avoids people complaining of wrenched shoulders and means that the lead doesn't have to move much.

This double back step results in too great a distance between partners and makes it difficult for your partner to step straight forward as you are standing in their path.

Three things:
1) You know that you are leading your partner to step back and you know you are stepping back - you don't step back to create a space between where your partner was but where they will be ie. half the distance.

2) You are now stepped back from your partner: you may be in their path, but they have the space to start travelling down it before you need to move out their way - they will start travelling towards you rather than some vague direction to your side. It is after all a partner dance, and you do want your partner to be dancing with you rather than around you.

3) You step back because you are about to step forward again: you are keeping the sphere in which you dance anchored in the same place on the dance floor - less chance of accidental collision.

When you lead your partner's back-step you should apply compression into her hand and either stand still, step in place or step to the side. For most moves you will probably be stepping to the side, possibly slightly forward. Consider the "first move", as you lead your partner in her first back step you should try apply compression with your left hand at hip height as you lean into your partner's answering compression - as she starts to respond to the compression you should step to the left and sideways, possibly slightly forward - any amount of backwards is too much.

I agree that you should actually lead the step back and apply compression, but at this point you should still be facing each other and on the same "path". On the step in you should be leading your partner forward, perhaps a half-body width to your right as you step forward (again a half-body width to your left), meeting her in the middle; side to side.
If you have stepped forward (or remained stationary) on the first count, then your floor positioning is now a step forward as you execute the remainder of the move. Stepping in or remaining stationary every time the follower steps back is going to result in everyone 'drifting' forward. Maintaining the balance of stepping back and forward keeps you within your own space on the dance floor.

Once you have mastered this side-step you will be on the road to dancing like the guy below. He is simply getting out of his partners path so that he can lead her straight forward rather than slightly off course.

If talking about WCS, then the dynamics are quite similar to the elasticity of MJ - the main difference is that the central point that the partner's horizontally 'bounce' around is the lead: MJ is like an 8... two halves, bouncing around the connection point in the middle. WCS is more like an elongated +... the follower bouncing horizontally up and down the long length while the lead anchors themselves in the middle, bouncing side to side across the short length to avoid collision.

The techniques in both dances (and a lot of the "moves") are very similar and some skills can be taken from one to the other. Trying to dance MJ with a WCS dynamic has some benefits, and some pitfalls. For beginners new to dancing, I think that the pitfalls are greater than the benefits.

(Marc and Rachel teach their version of this called "Cuban Blues" - check it out if interested)

It is great that you've noticed that you are missing the breaks. It means you already know where they are

Most people go on workshops to even be aware of what a break is, let alone where it falls in the music Great start!

As you seem to know so much, Mr Secreto, tell us all what is the point of the semi-circle and what the back-step is all about? You say you make is small. Why do it all all? Especially when you intend to lead a cross-body move?

Semi-circle? It has the same function as the raised arm on a man-spin - it's preperation for the next movement. ie. the lead into the step back. The semi-circle is used in the beginner's class to indicate that the first movement is going to be led. Put your hand in someone else's and push back. In 90% of beginners, their hand will move back, then they will. The semi-circle tells them to engage a frame and expect a lead: Do a semi-circle then push back and it prepares the follower from a 'cold start'.
If you don't have a 'cold start', then there is no need for a semi-circle. But it does serve a function.

The step back? see above.


{PS I step forward when I dance, but I also move about the dance floor. When I am constrained and can't move about the floor, I step back. (or change the dynamics to a combination of blues and WCS if it's a slower track )}

[Andy McGregor]

Andy is wrong... again!

MJ is a 'swing' dance. Fairly recently heavy influences from "Blues", "WCS" and "Argentinian Tango" have slowed it down and smoothed it out, but the core 'look' of the dance is based upon an elasticity between partners: coming towards each other, extending out and coming in again. By stepping forward and not mirroring your partner's distance, you are changing the core dynamics of the dance and restricting the range of movements/contrast your dancing can contain.

I'm still teaching the in and out stepping on turns and returns that gives the swingy elasticity. What I'm not teaching is the pointless/mindless back-step at the start of every move. This pointless backstep is there because it's part of the "semi-cicle to the left and both step back" that starts the teaching of every move at many classes.

People know my opinion of the semi-circle and many of the best teachers, even in Ceroc, have abandoned this pointless gesture. If it were essential, as Gadget seems to imply, it would be impossible to teach the dance without it - this is simply not the case. IMO it is impossible to do the dance smoothly if you continue to do it.

[Agente Secreto]

As you seem to know so much, Mr Secreto, tell us all what is the point of the semi-circle and what the back-step is all about? You say you make is small. Why do it all all? Especially when you intend to lead a cross-body move?

Andy, I've never danced using the semi-circle and agree its pointless, I just don't lose any sleep over Ceroc teaching it.


However I can see all sorts of purposes for teaching beginners a step back.

1. Most moves I've been taught finish with the partners stepped back away from each other and the active part of any move that follows on must begin from this stepped back position. So stepping away at the start gets people used to the kind of movement they'll feel in freestyle for the main constituent part of the move
2. It gets the guy moving - and stops his left and right feet being fixed over the same patch of floor on some left-right shuffle
3. In slotted moves its easy to open the slot with a small step back on the foot on the side you're opening up, opening the body at the same time of course

Of course I'm happy that you teach your classes the techniques that you believe in - and if I ever make it down to Sussex and come to your classes I'll follow exactly what you say. I just don't share the idea that every other teacher in the MJ world is wrong by teaching something different.



Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[geoff332]

This isn't just an issue for beginners. One of the reasons it's difficult to progress from beginners to intermediate is there is not a particularly well defined demarcation of what differentiates a beginner from an intermediate dancer.

I think we all agree that a beginner is anyone who is not an intermediate (or advanced) dancer - ie someone new. Ceroc provide two vague criteria for progressing to intermediate:

• You have attended six or more classes
• You are 'proficient' in the 19 beginner's moves

The first is a vague criteria - some people are competent after fewer classes; some people require significantly more (in my case, I attended intermediate classes in my first night of Ceroc... and was perfectly comfortable in them). I see any "number of classes" criteria as meaningless.

The second is trickier. Yes, there are 19 moves and they probably do encompass the basic skills you need to move beyond the beginner level. What I'm not clear on is how one defined proficiency at these moves? Without that definition, it's almost impossible to know if someone is capable of being an intermediate dancer (most teachers probably have some idea, but I sincerely doubt that ).

Without being able to know what makes an intermediate dancer, it makes it very hard to work out how to help someone progress from a beginner to an intermediate dancer. If you go to other dance styles, you typically find classes structured into a course that teach the skills required to progress as a dancer. By attending classes, you accumulate skills and your dancing improves. My experience of ceroc over the last 18 months in the UK has been an almost complete lack of progression in my dancing (the only progress I have made has been under the auspices of teachers that ceroc has elected not to work with).

Why do I care? I've seen the following affects of what I've described.

• It makes it harder for beginners - they don't really know what they need to learn to be an intermediate dancer
• It makes it harder for teachers - it makes it harder to design anything more than a single class
• It makes it harder for intermediates to learn and progress
• It forces the lowering the standard of intermediate classes to accommodate dancers who are less able
• It causes capable dancers to dance less often; to attend fewer classes and to stagnate in their dancing

Put all of those points together and it makes dancing less enjoyable. And you get the frustration that this thread is founded on.

[Andy McGregor]

Andy, I've never danced using the semi-circle and agree its pointless, I just don't lose any sleep over Ceroc teaching it.

That's because you don't have to put up with people turning up to your lessons who've been taught this pointless gesture that promotes bad habits.

Most moves I've been taught finish with the partners stepped back away from each other and the active part of any move that follows on must begin from this stepped back position. So stepping away at the start gets people used to the kind of movement they'll feel in freestyle for the main constituent part of the move

I see no problem with teaching the guy to step back when that's what's required for the move. It's the slavish step back at the start of every move that I disagree with. For instance, when you're doing a cross-body move there is no requirement to step back at all, you need to step to the side to clear the lady's path. A back step still leaves you in her path.

IMHO a huge number of the bad habits you see in MJ are all down to the "semi-circle to the left and both step back" that precedes every move. If you don't do those things you will not end up with those habits.

Of course I'm happy that you teach your classes the techniques that you believe in - and if I ever make it down to Sussex and come to your classes I'll follow exactly what you say. I just don't share the idea that every other teacher in the MJ world is wrong by teaching something different.

It's not every other MJ teacher. Just the ones doing the semi-circle. And they're reducing in number as the dance evolves

[bigdjiver]

I think that there are just beginners, as in someone who has just begun, and learners.

For me "intermediate" implies someone who has not reached their limit, and also implies there will a stage when they have got as far as theyare going, and also a stage where they move into decline. I may well be somewhere around that last point , but I do not want to hear a label for it.