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Thread: Lady leaders in the line-up

  1. #61
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I know this is a lady in rotation thing... I have had many ladies upset and not happy about this... So to all of you chicks who "help out" in rotation being a leader... good for you, well done, BUT why do you not care about the 1 or 2 you p1ss off?

    I think it becomes an "I am helping out, fk you if you do not like" thingie.
    It is not about you... it is about those new beginners you are peeing off.
    Have you been talking to a lady form a beginner workshop this year?

    I went to my first workshop this year and as there was one man short, I asked if I could fill in that space so that I could get some tips on how to lead as I was just starting to lead. The teacher quite happily agreed as it would make the class flow easier/make numbers even. (note - I asked first)

    Everyone was aware at the beginning of the workshop that I was going to be a lead, so if you're not happy about dancing with a female you should make your views clear to the teacher, so when there is a rotation she can make sure you pass the female lead.

    1 particular lady made it quite obvious she didn't like dancing with me - fair enough, but I didn't like dancing with her either - but she openly critised my leading to me, dented my confidence and even now I'm still paranoid about my tension. She was quite rude to me, and even after I pointed out I was learning to lead it didn't seem to make her attitude any better. (I don't mind being told I could do with improvement but there are nicer ways to do it).

    Is it fair to openly criticise anybody - regardless of their sex - when they are leading? And if you feel they could do with some help on improvement, there's no need to be rude about it - you can always mention it to a taxi dancer/teacher who can subtley help.

  2. #62
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    I've never actually seen a venue advertised as 'Come and learn to dance only with people of the opposite gender', or 'ladies come and learn (only) to follow, gents come and learn (only) to lead.
    Therein lies the numb of the problem in this thread.

    I believe the presumption is that if you go to a partner dance venue the presumption is you will dance with a person of the opposite sex. Therefore unless there is good reason otherwise, dancing with a person of the same sex is not what you are paying for, unless clearly stated.

    You obviously think that presumption is not there and that is a point of view as well.

    IMO a wrong view. Every dance program, every dance advert, every dance website always shows opposite sex couples. They never show same sex couples. Why is that?

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I feel that when a person goes to a partner dance class the presumption is you will dance with a person of the opposite sex.
    Ceroc specifically says you don't need to bring a partner with you to learn - one of the main reasons I started.
    I've looked into different dance classes and all of them have quite clearly stated that you must come as a male/female partner and same sex couple are not permitted in their class. If you don't have any male friends willing to learn to dance with you, how can you join that class?

  4. #64
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanie View Post
    1 particular lady made it quite obvious she didn't like dancing with me - fair enough, but I didn't like dancing with her either - but she openly critised my leading to me, dented my confidence and even now I'm still paranoid about my tension. She was quite rude to me, and even after I pointed out I was learning to lead it didn't seem to make her attitude any better. (I don't mind being told I could do with improvement but there are nicer ways to do it).

    Is it fair to openly criticise anybody - regardless of their sex - when they are leading? And if you feel they could do with some help on improvement, there's no need to be rude about it - you can always mention it to a taxi dancer/teacher who can subtley help.
    Hmmm. Now we get into another murky area - I think it's been discussed elsewhere. First off, as martingold said earlier to begin this thread, there's no call for rudeness. Now personally, I think that one should not criticise your partner's dancing, whether in a workshop, class or freestyle situation without direct invitation (unless one is doing it for self-preservation reasons)
    In a workshop / class situation particularly, it disturbs the class, and it stops you and your partner from listening to the teachers. Who are the ones you're paying to teach you.

    This has happened to me a few times too - and the odd thing is that it's almost always the weaker dancers in the class who do it. The better dancers tend not to.

    Anyway in my book, to do it at all is bad, and to do it rudely is ten times worse. If there's a next time, just blank her and listen to the teachers - they know far more than her anyway

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I believe the presumption is that if you go to a partner dance venue the presumption is you will dance with a person of the opposite sex. Therefore unless there is good reason otherwise, dancing with a person of the same sex is not what you are paying for, unless clearly stated.

    You obviously think that presumption is not there and that is a point of view as well.
    You yourself know fine well from personal observation that your 'presumption' concerning genders is wrong.

    So what you seem to be assuming that newcomers will a) assume that it's opposite-gender dancing only, and b) have a serious problem if it turns out to be otherwise**. This is beginning to get a little tenuous.

    **At least - I assume that you're assuming that's what they're assuming.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    IMO a wrong view. Every dance program, every dance advert, every dance website always shows opposite sex couples. They never show same sex couples. Why is that?
    So? Most of them show fit attractive young opposite sex couples. Am I to assume that if I go I'll only be dancing with slim attractive young ladies? Or that they might not let me in because I'm not so fit, attractive or young?

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I know this is a lady in rotation thing... I have had many ladies upset and not happy about this... So to all of you chicks who "help out" in rotation being a leader... good for you, well done, BUT why do you not care about the 1 or 2 you p1ss off?

    I think it becomes an "I am helping out, fk you if you do not like" thingie.
    It is not about you... it is about those new beginners you are peeing off.

    All those ladies who lead well, all power to you... can you now consider beginner dancers?

    As I have said before, I am happy to dance with a man or a woman, but let's think about someone new to dance... (I seriously think those women who take a leader role in a class situation are thinking more about them, than the punters)
    Grrrr.

    I've been leading (in classes and in freestyle) for 4 years. Whenever I lead in a class, I almost always stand near the top of row 1 so that, if a woman is really that bothered by it, she can switch places in the waiting line before coming into the rotation to avoid me. I've never yet seen it happen - even in classes where dips are being taught.

    I've only ever once had someone be uncomfortable enough to refuse me a dance, and that was at a venue where there were twice as many women as men and she therefore sat the next three dances out.

    Do you really believe that, just because of 1 individual in 4 years, I should have avoided dancing as a lead in classes all this time, and therefore not have learnt how, not been a taxi dancer, not been able to help with gender balance, never been able to dance even when all the men have man-flu, and never benefited from dancing with all the lovely forumite ladies?

    Martin, please bear in mind that your reaction to this is that of a man, not a woman. Women are, in general, more comfortable with interaction with other members of their own sex. Just because one woman you met was clearly on the pull, and therefore decided to be difficult, doesn't mean that lady leaders aren't 'acceptable' in general.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I say, grin and bare it, after all, its only a couple of minutes and people will know, its not your choice anyway
    Now there's a statement that could come back to haunt you after a few drinks on Saturday night...

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    .....stuff......
    are you talking about me again??????
    Martin, don't take this the wrong way but I never noticed your breasts when we danced together at Breeze - just your smiling face and welcoming nature

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Some ladies are put out, dancing with a lady in rotation.
    Everyone wants beginners to come back, so let's not put off beginners who expected to be dancing modern dance with someone of the opposite sex.
    Though I'm sure this might well open another can of worms. Some time back there was a lesbian couple that came to dancing. One of them wanted to learn to lead and the venue manager strongly dissuaded her and told her that she should learn to follow (despite the fact that other ladies ended up leading). They didn't come back. So maybe they were hoping to dance with at least each other in terms of same sex dancing and maybe introduced more people from the gay community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Most people I talk to, want to dance with someone of the opposite sex, and they want to learn to dance well.
    I see these and two distinct, and unrelated, items.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I feel that when a person goes to a partner dance class the presumption is you will dance with a person of the opposite sex. I therefore think it is unreasonable to say that because they have danced with someone of the same sex they are less likely to come back anyway is a reasonable way of supporting your arguement. Surely they are less likely to come back if they have not got what they thought they paid for.
    It's not like they arrived and it turned out that no guys are actually there and they are going to be following women all night. It's for a bit of a dance in the rotation. So they are still dancing with people of the opposite sex for the vast majority of the evening.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    If the venue allows lady leads beyond the point of evening out numbers when allowing lady leads this policy IMO should be clearly stated in all their advertising, as I think they are then unjustifably misleading people otherwise.
    What? See, when I ask guys for a dance I tend to know the person and know it's likely they'll be cool with it (I have made the wrong call before, they turned me down, no big deal). I'm not going to walk up to some first week beginner guy and ask him for a dance.

    I think most women are like this too, that is they tend to ask other women they know (or maybe that they've seen dancing with another woman already). So unless their are people who are so strongly against seeing women dance together they will never return then I don't really see this as a problem. If some woman actually asks them to dance they can, shock horror, refuse.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Some time back there was a lesbian couple that came to dancing. One of them wanted to learn to lead and the venue manager strongly dissuaded her and told her that she should learn to follow (despite the fact that other ladies ended up leading). They didn't come back. So maybe they were hoping to dance with at least each other in terms of same sex dancing and maybe introduced more people from the gay community.
    Thank you for that story. That's a very disappointing thing to hear. I would like to think that MJ classes can be a welcoming environment to same-gender couples.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_L View Post
    Thank you for that story. That's a very disappointing thing to hear. I would like to think that MJ classes can be a welcoming environment to same-gender couples.
    I'm sure it could be; just the venue manager's (who is a venue manager no longer, but not related) attitude to it possibly sealed off the opportunity. The story was actually my girlfriend's, who was taxiing that evening, had I been there I'd probably have told the girl to ignore the venue manager's advice and just lead anyway.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan in Notts View Post
    Martin, don't take this the wrong way but I never noticed your breasts when we danced together at Breeze - just your smiling face and welcoming nature
    Thank you so much for that compiment you have no idea how good that makes me feel
    All partner dancing for me is about is having fun (obviously unless you are competing which i never will) so if i can brighten someones experience by being smiley and welcoming that really lifts me
    That is why i taxi That s why i dance with everyone and anyone and that is why i alway have a smile on my face

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_L View Post
    Thank you for that story. That's a very disappointing thing to hear. I would like to think that MJ classes can be a welcoming environment to same-gender couples.
    there are very few rules for crews at mj lessons The most important is welcome everyone
    I do ask first timer ladies not to lead telling them they will get more out of it if they dont but i certainly wouldnt stop them if they wanted to same as fixed couples if thats what people want to do who are we to tell them they should come along spend their money then do as they are told.

  13. #73
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I feel that when a person goes to a partner dance class the presumption is you will dance with a person of the opposite sex. I therefore think it is unreasonable to say that because they have danced with someone of the same sex they are less likely to come back anyway is a reasonable way of supporting your arguement. Surely they are less likely to come back if they have not got what they thought they paid for.

    I think that first lady taxis and then non taxi leads when ASKED by the venue management to lead, if there are ladies over, thats fine by me. As people have argued in this situation the greater good outways the the admittedly small individual harm. IMO many of the ladies who may otherwise get upset would see the logic and functionality in that,

    However I have been to classes where ladies are leading and there are more men than women. As far as I am concerned what Martin has said above is spot on.

    If the venue allows lady leads beyond the point of evening out numbers when allowing lady leads this policy IMO should be clearly stated in all their advertising, as I think they are then unjustifably misleading people otherwise.
    I'm really not quite sure what you mean in your first paragraph. My original point (to try to make it clear) was that if they are that worried about the close contact with a lady leading, and that is the reason that they are not coming back, then it's possible (and I only suggest it) that any close contact would drive them away - I'd have thought that there will be plenty of men that I'm sure they're not comfortable with, and therefore, the fact that they leave supposedly because of having danced with a female lead, is in fact immaterial.

    Further, I think that Straycat alluded to a very good point there.

    The lady in the line-up has paid her money to do the class, same as everyone else there (okie, if she's a taxi-dancer, then not, but I'm assuming that taxi-dancers will dance whatever role is needed, so if there's men over and the female taxi-dancer was leading then I'd be surprised). If she wants to lead, then surely that's up to her. Even if there are men over.

    Just because convention says that women are followers, that doesn't have to be the case. You pay your money, you take your choice (although, I still do think that it would be difficult for a man to do the class in the followers role).

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post

    Just because convention says that women are followers, that doesn't have to be the case. You pay your money, you take your choice (although, I still do think that it would be difficult for a man to do the class in the followers role).
    You do pay your money and take your choice.

    Women in general are less vocal than men, and simply vote with thier feet, and do not come back.

    Men often make a scene about same sex dancing, so we notice it more.

    The thing is, in a line up, for a beginner, you are presented with something that might be out of your comfort zone. You then vocalise, or just do not come back next week.

    Freestyle is different, you can accept or reject, no worries.

    Our local venue has more men than women, I am often tempted to do the follow role in class, but I do not, due to the fact that I might upset one or two people.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Our local venue has more men than women.....
    AArrggghhh I've been attending the wrong venue for the past 5 months....

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazibaby View Post
    AArrggghhh I've been attending the wrong venue for the past 5 months....
    Well, start attending venues on the Gold Coast then. Though, even I would consider that to be a little far for an evenings dancing...

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Well, start attending venues on the Gold Coast then.

    we could do with more ladies!

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Well, start attending venues on the Gold Coast then. Though, even I would consider that to be a little far for an evenings dancing...
    Any excuse for a holiday.....

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazibaby View Post
    Any excuse for a holiday.....
    It is rather sunny here, clear blue sky and hot... Air con weather.

    Did I mention I have spare rooms, book a flight and come and visit "the other side"

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    It is rather sunny here, clear blue sky and hot... Air con weather.

    Did I mention I have spare rooms, book a flight and come and visit "the other side"
    Now there's an offer a girl can't refuse....bye bye Girl Leads and hello Aussie Hunks...........where's my passport.......???

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