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Thread: Lady leaders in the line-up

  1. #41
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz View Post
    As a taxi dancer (and even pre taxi dancing) i take the role as a lead in class... At first (a couple of years ago) I did have a couple of women in class who would not want to dance with me in class but nowadays more often than not they are glad to get me as I know what I am doing...

    As a female taxi we are encouraged to be a female if at all possible in order to help the new guys but if there are an excessive amount of spare females it is considered acceptable for us to lead the class. Also when taxi ing I try to dance with male and female beginners.. and have had no complaints
    this of course is absolutely correct
    barbs was just saying almost exactly this to me when i was reading it
    when she dances the lead she often gets compliments because for one her timing is more often than not perfect also she is precise in the moves all of which makes it easier for a follow
    of course when she can she takes the follows part as caz says so the beginner men get a chance
    but if there is a huge amount of female follows she would dance lead

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I've read this thread with interest.

    As a reasonably experienced follower (though not a taxi dancer), I often take the leader's role in class, though only if there is an excess of women.

    I understand some women may feel uncomfortable at the idea of dancing with me, and if they wanted to change places with another woman in order to avoid me I wouldn't take it personally.

    However the main issue in the example given in the OP appeared to me to be one of rudeness.

    Live and let live, just don't tread on other people's feelings

  3. #43
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by firefly View Post

    However the main issue in the example given in the OP appeared to me to be one of rudeness.

    that was exactly what i was saying in my origanal post she was so rude i didnt want to dance with her at all
    If she had asked the lady next to her i would have had no problem with this whatsoever

    female leads are essential in a class as there is almost always too many ladies in the class and i think anyone who teaches or helps teach should at least atempt to dance both roles at some time

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    However when women take it upon themselves to lead in a class as a private individual, almost certainly without the permission of every woman there is that correct? I don't think so.
    I don't really see a problem with it. I think we make it a bigger deal than it is and, furthermore, the more of a deal we make it the more of a deal it appears to be. I've been at venues dancing with other men where you'll get a lot of people looking at you (either funny looks or curious) whereas it's a common enough thing at Southport and such that few people even bat an eye.

    I've only ever seen one guy in rotation as a follower (and it was at a Lindy Hop event) and though I was a bit surprised, because it was unusual, it didn't bother me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hevmac View Post
    I have been dipped by a woman on a dips and drops workshop – I didn’t like it because she wasn’t strong enough (in fact she dropped me on the floor once) but even so, it didn’t feel right. [/FONT][/SIZE]
    I'm pretty sure there are plenty of men who aren't strong enough to do a lot of drops they attempt. I've been dipped, dropped and seduced ( ) by many a man and women. I'm not exactly a small guy, but I should be able to take my own weight in a lot of dips and such. For deep drops I might well pass but then that's surely something that both partners should realizes.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    I've been dipped, dropped and seduced ( )
    Amongst other things!

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Amongst other things!
    As I idly sip my wine and reread this thread, I can't help but think that if people of the same gender didn't dance together from time to time, I wouldn't have been able to admire sights like my rather gorgeous other half blues dancing with my rather gorgeous ex....

    OK - so I probably shouldn't be putting thoughts like this on the forum.

    To press submit or not to pr

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Like some of the other female posters I first started dancing as a lead in the beginner class when I was a taxi dancer. I used to enjoy the challenge and the belief that I was helping and when I stopped being a taxi carried it on as it certainly helped to avoid the "ladies move on 20...." nightmare already discussed.

    Coming back to MJ this year after a long break I have not done the classes as a lead as I have wanted to concentrate on my following skills but I do dance the lead in freestyle with friends particularly if there are few men around.

    I have been refused twice when asking to lead others during freestyle once a long time ago by a lady who I had chatted to regularly but who just didn't like dancing with females; the other was very recently when I had assumed that a chap who was an excellent dancer who had been double troubling etc.. would be up for a play, he said he did not follow in MJ but did in WCS. We danced anyway but he took the lead and I came away learning a lesson about making assumptions.

    To be honest it is completely up to the individual whether they want to dance with people of the same sex or not in freestyle or class or swap the traditional male = lead role, if they don't want to then dip out of the line but try to be subtle about it in class and be polite if refusing in freestyle (which both of the above were by the way).

    When I have been lead by a lady they are often good clear leads because they have endured the opposite as a follower. The ladies who have lead me in the class at my local venue are all very good and I think that is also because they are the more experienced dancers.

    I think that the woman that caused the upset at Martingold's class should have 'ed and beared it after all who knows what would happen to the rotation if we all decided to avoid people in the line:-

    " Well, I don't want to dance with no 1 because he stares at me.......mind you the next one along squeezes my hand too tight ....... but then again no3 is wearing a naff t'shirt ..... bxxxxy hell number 4 has got breasts ..."etc...

    Before any one comes back I am very aware that the men might have exactly the same thoughts about the women in the room.

    There is already a melee to get to the experienced male leads in freestyle heaven help us poor women if it started in class as well.

  8. #48
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    At the last Dundee party I did my first full class as a follower (OK, I dressed for the part as well!) and I found it quite an exciting experience - especially the seducer move, although perhaps that says something about me! Respect to all my class partners, who entered into the spirit of the event - apart from my final testosterone-fuelled partner, who dumped me rather than go straight from the routine into freestyle ......YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!

    As has been said, the practicality of shortage of men often makes it sensible for some ladies to act as leaders in the class and I am 100% convinced that their own experience as followers makes them better at dealing with a beginner lady than many men who have been dancing for years - some of whom relish the opportunity of showing how "good" they are.

    I am also sure that as men we would all be better leaders if we had more experience of being a follower.

    But we also need to accept that just as some men feel uncomfortable dancing with a man, there are probably some (maybe fewer?) women who don't like dancing with a woman. How do we deal with that situation, especially for beginners, without creating a scene?

    Perhaps the class teacher could explain (for the sake of newcomers) why it is happening, encourage everyone to go along with it but say that if anyone is really, really, really unhappy then they can swap partners with the next person in line. In practice I don't think it's an option that would be exercised very often ................... unless of course I am in the class as a follower again!

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    As a relative newbie, I am happy dancing with a female lead as long as she is a strong lead. There are one or two females I prefer not to dance with because they are not good Leads however I can also say the same for a couple of guys in the class. The difference is, the guys are still learning, like me. These girls are not experienced dancers. However I would never be rude and bypass them during the rotation nor would I give them the slightest hint of my preference. Practise makes perfect as they say...and i'm sure there are guys out there who would rather not dance with me....

    Personally I would much rather experienced girls participated as Leads and even up the class. Its all about the dancing after all....

    Interestingly, during one of my very first Intermediate classes (only a couple of months ago) the only person who could successfully lead one of the moves that night was female.....hat off to you firefly....

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazibaby View Post
    Interestingly, during one of my very first Intermediate classes (only a couple of months ago) the only person who could successfully lead one of the moves that night was female.....hat off to you firefly....

    Thank you for the compliment

    I don't know who you are though! Come and say hello sometime

    EDIT: I've just looked at your profile. I think I may have an idea...
    Last edited by firefly; 7th-November-2008 at 01:13 AM. Reason: See above! :wink:

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I did not make this into a new thread. Some friendly mod did.

    All cool.

    My position is...

    Some ladies are put out, dancing with a lady in rotation.
    Everyone wants beginners to come back, so let's not put off beginners who expected to be dancing modern dance with someone of the opposite sex.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of ladies lead better than beginner males, I also think it is good that ladies know both roles.

    Most people I talk to, want to dance with someone of the opposite sex, and they want to learn to dance well.

    I do not think this is a crime.

    So here it is (having tried rotation as a follow, and seen a lot of people mixing and matching in class) we are dancing MJ, we like to learn... In the class I should not have to dance with someone of the same sex - you are putting me (or someone else) in a situation where I feel uncomfortable I will either leave or stand up and reject.

    I know this is a lady in rotation thing... I have had many ladies upset and not happy about this... So to all of you chicks who "help out" in rotation being a leader... good for you, well done, BUT why do you not care about the 1 or 2 you p1ss off?

    I think it becomes an "I am helping out, fk you if you do not like" thingie.
    It is not about you... it is about those new beginners you are peeing off.

    All those ladies who lead well, all power to you... can you now consider beginner dancers?

    As I have said before, I am happy to dance with a man or a woman, but let's think about someone new to dance... (I seriously think those women who take a leader role in a class situation are thinking more about them, than the punters)

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I did not make this into a new thread. Some friendly mod did.

    Some ladies are put out, dancing with a lady in rotation.
    Everyone wants beginners to come back, so let's not put off beginners who expected to be dancing modern dance with someone of the opposite sex.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of ladies lead better than beginner males, I also think it is good that ladies know both roles.

    Most people I talk to, want to dance with someone of the opposite sex, and they want to learn to dance well.

    I do not think this is a crime.

    So here it is (having tried rotation as a follow, and seen a lot of people mixing and matching in class) we are dancing MJ, we like to learn... In the class I should not have to dance with someone of the same sex - you are putting me (or someone else) in a situation where I feel uncomfortable I will either leave or stand up and reject.

    I know this is a lady in rotation thing... I have had many ladies upset and not happy about this... So to all of you chicks who "help out" in rotation being a leader... good for you, well done, BUT why do you not care about the 1 or 2 you p1ss off?

    I think it becomes an "I am helping out, fk you if you do not like" thingie.
    It is not about you... it is about those new beginners you are peeing off.

    I think you are wrong Martin because your post sums up that you can’t please all the people all the time and if it was not for female leaders at some venues then the ladies would have to wait out for much longer and this would also put them off and they may not come back.

    What about some of the men that us ladies have to dance with during rotation that frankly we’d rather not, should we discourage them from leading because we don’t enjoy that moment with them?

    I don’t think it is female leaders that is the problem it is the lack of male dancers at venues so what is needed is getting in more male dancers and making sure that they are encouraged to continue.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So here it is (having tried rotation as a follow, and seen a lot of people mixing and matching in class) we are dancing MJ, we like to learn... In the class I should not have to dance with someone of the same sex - you are putting me (or someone else) in a situation where I feel uncomfortable I will either leave or stand up and reject.

    I know this is a lady in rotation thing... I have had many ladies upset and not happy about this... So to all of you chicks who "help out" in rotation being a leader... good for you, well done, BUT why do you not care about the 1 or 2 you p1ss off?
    Is it better to have a class that flows smoothly, with an absolute minimum of standing out time for spare follows, or is it better to avoid risking the ire of those '1 or 2' (personally I think it's more likely to be '0 or 1') Myself, I'd say the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I think it becomes an "I am helping out, fk you if you do not like" thingie.
    It is not about you... it is about those new beginners you are peeing off.
    You say this as if everyone doing a class is doing it just for the benefit of everyone else...
    If I'm in a class as a leader, it's for my benefit. If I'm in the class as a follower, it's also for my benefit, even if there are several leaders spare. I want to learn. It's not a case if "fk you" if you don't like it - it's a case of "tell me" if you don't like it, and we can stand out when we meet in the rotation. You have a choice, and no-one is going to force themselves on a dancer who is able to say: 'Look. I'm just not comfortable with this.' If a lady is in a class as a lead purely to help balance the numbers, all credit to her. She's not going to have the 'fk you' attitude you talk about - that suggests she's doing something she knows is 'wrong' and is on the defensive. She's not doing something wrong. She's also there to learn, and she's doing it in a way that benefits herself and the class in general. Good for her.


    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    All those ladies who lead well, all power to you... can you now consider beginner dancers?
    Most of them are doing exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    (I seriously think those women who take a leader role in a class situation are thinking more about them, than the punters)
    And I seriously think that those women who take a leader role in a class situation are generally thinking far more about the good of the class as a whole than most other people in the class.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Tis a good point Maxine, and one that I was going to make while I was reading Martins reply.

    If you took all the people out of the rotation that 1 or 2 beginners didn't want to get, then you'd probably end up with 3 leaders in the rotation.

    In classes where there are lots of women over (usually), that's generally where you'd find woman acting as leads, I think that a lot more people would be put off by the do it once, sit out once thing. Maybe you should take a quick poll next time you go to a venue where there are a lot more women than men Martin - and if more than half of the women in the queue would be happier dancing with a woman leading than sitting out as much as they are on the floor, will you change your mind then?

    I've not seen many women put off about dancing with another woman (though, I will admit to having seen a couple), and, the next question is, if they feel like that, are they likely to come back anyhow really?

    Of course, the perfect situation is to have equally balanced numbers, then less women would feel the need to dance as leads, but, lets face it, in almost all of the venues I've ever been to, that's not been the case, with women usually out-numbering the men of course. And, faced with a non-perfect situation, I think that the only thing to do is to make the best of it, and if that means women dancing as leads to help even up the numbers, then so be it.
    Last edited by TheTramp; 7th-November-2008 at 10:28 AM.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan in Notts View Post

    I think that the woman that caused the upset at Martingold's class should have 'ed and beared it after all who knows what would happen to the rotation if we all decided to avoid people in the line:-
    unfortunately this has been seperated to a thread about lady leads
    my origanal post was about someone i hate dancing with as she is so rude
    imho all she needed to do was be polite as the lady next to her to swap and no one would have minded
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan in Notts View Post
    bxxxxy hell number 4 has got breasts ..."etc...
    are you talking about me again??????

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I did not make this into a new thread. Some friendly mod did.

    All cool.

    My position is...

    Some ladies are put out, dancing with a lady in rotation.
    Everyone wants beginners to come back, so let's not put off beginners who expected to be dancing modern dance with someone of the opposite sex.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of ladies lead better than beginner males, I also think it is good that ladies know both roles.

    All those ladies who lead well, all power to you... can you now consider beginner dancers?

    As I have said before, I am happy to dance with a man or a woman, but let's think about someone new to dance... (I seriously think those women who take a leader role in a class situation are thinking more about them, than the punters)
    I think you are completly wrong and have changed this into a thread about lady leads with beginners
    the lady in question had been at ceroc for quite a long time this was one incident out of many where she was rude
    the beginner in question had no problem at all dancing with a lady lead as it is generally thought of as the the norm outside of the dance world and almost always inside it unlike male follows

    all of this comes down to the fact that i hate rude people

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    It is common practice, at least in places I've been, for female taxi dancers to take the role of the leader in beginner's class where there is an excess of women, and few brand new beginner males.

    If a woman doesn't want to be led by a woman in a class, then they simply shouldn't do the class.
    I'm quite happy to dance with other women. There are however a few men in class I'd rather not dance with, but that's the nature of classes so I just smile sweetly and dance with them anyway

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    I'm quite happy to dance with other women. There are however a few men in class I'd rather not dance with, but that's the nature of classes so I just smile sweetly and dance with them anyway


    You can say that again. (about the men dancers you dont really want to dance with i mean)

    Infact most women i dance with are quite exceptional in their dance abilities as leaders and give me some of the best dances of the night.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post


    You can say that again. (about the men dancers you dont really want to dance with i mean)

    Infact most women i dance with are quite exceptional in their dance abilities as leaders and give me some of the best dances of the night.
    Sounds like you dont need us men...

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Originally Posted by The Tramp
    I've not seen many women put off about dancing with another woman (though, I will admit to having seen a couple), and, the next question is, if they feel like that, are they likely to come back anyhow really?
    I feel that when a person goes to a partner dance class the presumption is you will dance with a person of the opposite sex. I therefore think it is unreasonable to say that because they have danced with someone of the same sex they are less likely to come back anyway is a reasonable way of supporting your arguement. Surely they are less likely to come back if they have not got what they thought they paid for.

    I think that first lady taxis and then non taxi leads when ASKED by the venue management to lead, if there are ladies over, thats fine by me. As people have argued in this situation the greater good outways the the admittedly small individual harm. IMO many of the ladies who may otherwise get upset would see the logic and functionality in that,

    Originally posted by Martin
    I know this is a lady in rotation thing... I have had many ladies upset and not happy about this... So to all of you chicks who "help out" in rotation being a leader... good for you, well done, BUT why do you not care about the 1 or 2 you p1ss off?
    I think it becomes an "I am helping out, fk you if you do not like" thingie.
    It is not about you... it is about those new beginners you are peeing off.
    However I have been to classes where ladies are leading and there are more men than women. As far as I am concerned what Martin has said above is spot on.

    If the venue allows lady leads beyond the point of evening out numbers when allowing lady leads this policy IMO should be clearly stated in all their advertising, as I think they are then unjustifably misleading people otherwise. .

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    If the venue allows lady leads beyond the point of evening out numbers when allowing lady leads this policy IMO should be clearly stated in all their advertising, as I think they are then unjustifably misleading people otherwise. .

    I've never actually seen a venue advertised as 'Come and learn to dance only with people of the opposite gender', or 'ladies come and learn (only) to follow, gents come and learn (only) to lead.

    Quite simply, you're making assumptions about what a dance evening 'should' consist of and what you're paying for, and then saying you want to be informed about each venue where your personal assumptions are going to be incorrect. The management of a venue may have completely different assumptions - they may think that what they're charging for is use of the venue, the teaching, the music, the organisational work it takes to put it all together. A particular lady, let's call her 'A', might assume that she's paying to learn all aspects of the dancing, including following and leading - and then to put that into practice through the evening. Why are the assumptions of these other people any less valid than your own? And how could you possibly expect the management to keep each and every single potential attendee informed of exactly which of their personal assumptions are going to be correct, and which are not?

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