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Thread: Lady leaders in the line-up

  1. #21
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    but a lady dancing as a man

    I think you mean Ladies taking the role of leader

    As mentioned “role reversal” is accepted in tango, particularly in classes and Practicas

    I think we should all learn both side of the dance It helps understand the dance and should be encouraged

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    What do you base this belief on?
    Most of the taxis I danced with when I started to learn, and some ladies I watch leading in Ceroc classes now. I'm not saying that good followers can't be good leaders, because often they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    In a line up that is not neccessaily the case. You are forced into the position of dancing lady on lady.
    I was more meaning that they can express their own opinion on this thread, rather than us assuming that just because men generally would refuse to dance with men in a class the same applies to women.

    Sean

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    Taxi Dancer Hevmac's Avatar
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    sorry but have you really got nothing better to talk about??.....
    i often lead in the line up, in my capacity as a taxi, and then during free style as our numbers are such that there are usually more ladies than men. but even before i was a taxi dancer i used to do this.
    i am sure i am neither a perfect lead or follow....who is?
    however i think to do both has been invaluable in teaching me to understand what makes both and strive to be better. also in my role of helping new people improve.
    i have NEVER had any complaints from ladies or heard of any complaints from ladies dancing with ladies as leads. sure, i think if you never got to dance with men then i am sure you would complain.
    i think when i dance with another lady i give her a bit more personal space for obvious reasons....
    as for men dancing with men. sorry i guess i have never seen this happen in a class situation only as a bit of fun. so can't comment. maybe men would feel more challenged/threatened by this.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Well i agree with you Hev. This is a strange one as it goes without saying that most dance classes end up with female leads. I always lead a beginners class as its something i find more interesting to do that follow. I have also taxi'd as a lead and its never as a follower as the percentage females to males is always higher in the females.

    I must say, most women newbies do say to me that i lead it better than the men and i explain it better to them as a woman and i get quite a lot the beginners coming up to me after the class to ask me to show them again.

    I think for women, it can be sometimes better to learn from a woman as they understand how the feet should move and how to pivot etc.

    It must be different where MArtin is from or not accepted yet maybe which is why he has strong views about it being not acceptable.

  5. #25
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I quite often end up leading in several venues I go to when there's more than a couple of ladies to move round...sometimes because it's expected of me as a female taxi to ensure there's a better balance of men & ladies. But even when I'm a non taxi I sometimes lead to help me improve my experience of leading and because I pay to go to dance, not sit on the side waiting a turn, so I'd rather lead and get more dancing.

    I've not had anyone refuse to dance with me, although there's a couple of women I suspect don't particularly like dancing with a female but on the whole most women in the class seem happy from their comments to get to dance with me and quite often say that the few women who lead are better than most of the men (most of us who do lead are taxis).

    I'm not keen on leading in freestyle - yes, if someone asks me because there's a glut of women that evening then I'll lead them, and sometimes I'll practise some moves with a female friend for fun, but I'd rather be led.

    And if I was a follower only, I'd prefer only to dance with men as well. But in my experience, to dance more frequently in a female dominated hobby then you dance with who's available.

  6. #26
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Hevmac View Post
    i am sure i am neither a perfect lead or follow....who is?

    however i think to do both has been invaluable in teaching me to understand what makes both and strive to be better. also in my role of helping new people improve.
    i
    as for men dancing with men. sorry i guess i have never seen this happen in a class situation only as a bit of fun. so can't comment. maybe men would feel more challenged/threatened by this.
    I as a man (i hope ) i could not agree with you more
    I do have to admit that until i came to the forum and also weekenders i wouldnt have wanted to dance as a follow (or with another man) but now my opinion has changed i think we all should dance with same sex partners and encourage it in others as it helps understand the others role in the dance therefore makes you a better dancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Well i agree with you Hev. This is a strange one as it goes without saying that most dance classes end up with female leads. I always lead a beginners class as its something i find more interesting to do that follow. I have also taxi'd as a lead and its never as a follower as the percentage females to males is always higher in the females.

    I must say, most women newbies do say to me that i lead it better than the men and i explain it better to them as a woman and i get quite a lot the beginners coming up to me after the class to ask me to show them again.

    I think for women, it can be sometimes better to learn from a woman as they understand how the feet should move and how to pivot etc.

    It must be different where MArtin is from or not accepted yet maybe which is why he has strong views about it being not acceptable.
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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I as a man (i hope ) i could not agree with you more
    I do have to admit that until i came to the forum and also weekenders i wouldnt have wanted to dance as a follow (or with another man) but now my opinion has changed i think we all should dance with same sex partners and encourage it in others as it helps understand the others role in the dance therefore makes you a better dancer
    Meh - I'm not keen on dancing with guys socially, personally. But I agree it helps when practicing.

    I guess the problem is that most people don't practice.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I starting leading in beginners' classes initially because I got sick of "moving on 10 ladies" and standing out just as much as actually dancing. By doing this I also figured that by evening the numbers out a bit it would benefit everyone because we would all have more dance time. It also gave me a bit of mental stimulation - learning something new.

    In my experience, quite a few of the women are quite pleased to "get" me in the the rotation. As Maxine and Hevmac have said previously, we can help them from a "follow's" perspective - eg making sure that she is on balance before leading her into a turn or a spin - which many new leads don't do because they are too busy thinking what they have got to do next. Also, I think that suggestions re grip and resistance for example are more readily accepted as the helpful advice it is intended to be rather than interpreted as criticism.

    Of course we women would always prefer to dance with a man (preferably handsome, smiling, dry, sweet-smellling etc etc ) but hey, this is the real world and needs must. My experience suggests that most would rather dance, than not dance.

    Of course I have seen the occasional female face fall when they count round and see that they are due to get me in the rotation, as has been mentioned previously, but the rotation moves around quickly, they accept it and get on with it, acknowledging, I hope, that by me dancing as a lead I am helping them get more dance / class time (and at least I don't grip with my thumb, wrench their arm out of its socket or hug them too closely to my scratchy jumper).

  9. #29
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Meh - I'm not keen on dancing with guys socially, personally. But I agree it helps when practicing.
    Awwww. Should I feel special then darling???

    I guess that it comes down to the fact that some women might feel uncomfortable dancing with another woman. I think that it might well just be a minority. And, I'm sure that there will be women who feel uncomfortable dancing with some men in the line-up for the class.

    Thinking of my usual nights where I work, we often have several women dancing as leads - particularly in the beginner classes. And that often saves the situation of being 20 couples on the dance floor and 20 women on, especially at the start of the evening*. And I'm sure that most (if not all) of the women in the class would prefer to dance with another woman, and have 6 ladies on in 30 couples, than 20 ladies on in 20 couples!

    I think that generally, more women would find it acceptable to dance with another woman, than men would to dance with another man (with obvious notable exceptions!), and I don't think that men should take the followers role in a normal class rotation, although this generally isn't needed for the sake of balancing the numbers.

    I certainly don't think that it's a good thing for anyone to have their confidence knocked. Especially people who are new to a taxi role.



    *Obviously, we need more men, and it's not that far to Dundee or Aberdeen. Honestly.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I do have to admit that until i came to the forum and also weekenders i wouldnt have wanted to dance as a follow (or with another man) but now my opinion has changed
    Hey, that's both refeshing and honest!
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  11. #31
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Awwww. Should I feel special then darling???
    Probably.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    One of the advantages of the interleaving move-on method is that there is more scope for the movers-on to avoid partners they do not like in class.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    When I was a young teenager starting out in ballroom there used to be a few older lady partners that made me cringe at the thouht of dancing with. The walking ashtrays, those worse for drink, and bad teeth were particular physical turnoffs, as well as various personality quirks. I grew more tolerant as I matured.

    Now, in my bus pass years I can see 3 of the younger ladies that sometimes appear in the class with similar reactions to me. I do what I can to aid any avoidance measures and to make the 50 seconds pass as quickly as I can. (Fortunately for my ego I get more of the same age group that ask me to dance, so I not ready to censor myself yet. )

    I cannot see any way of organising open classes so that everybody is happy all of the time. IMO learning more tolerance of other peoples defects is one of the plusses of the MJ scene.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    This sort of thing worries me.

    It's related to the way that most teacher's I've encountered always refer in their teaching to the "men" and the "women", rather than using the gender neutral terms "leaders" and "followers".

    As a man, I've tried learning to follow. I did this with my regular partner aside from the rest of the class, out of the rotation. I don't think I'd ever dare join the rotation as a male follower, because I'd worry that there'd be men in the rotation who would dislike me for "forcing" myself on them. (And maybe some of the followers would be annoyed that I was reducing the number of available male leads, too).

    I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels like this, and I worry about what that means for MJ, particularly in terms of same-sex couples who come along and want to learn to dance together, which is a perfectly fair thing for them to want to do.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I have been a follower in my regular venue, however as I taxi there and know most people it went ok.

    I would never follow, in the line up, in a strange venue. When dancing as a follower some people are uncomfortable with it, we as men following have to respect this.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I would prefer to dance with men, but I don’t have a problem dancing with women on the rotation. I didn’t like this when I first started, before I got used to the up-close-and-personal physicality of jive, but that was because it was strange to be in so much contact with unknown men, therefore all the more peculiar to be up close with completely the wrong sex. Now that my personal space with male dancers is very relaxed, so it is with women, though it’s still not as close as for men and I assume never will be.

    Respect to those women on the rotation for wanting to learn the other side; and at some point when I want a challenge in jive I might do the same thing. As per the comments made already, I think on the whole, women leaders do tend to benefit from knowing what it is like from the other side …I’ve never been thumbdug by a woman, for example!

    Usually the only women I jive with are Jan in Notts, ItsbyBitsy and one of the taxi dancers, all of whom I know well enough to be comfortable with, and who I reckon are clear leads, so I have a friendly dance with them. In west coast I do dance with other women quite often. I would much rather dance with men all the time, but that’s just the way it is. Accustomed as I am to dancing with men and not needing to be too careful where my arms/hands end up, I do occasionally wonder how men manage as well as they do!

    What would make me feel very uncomfortable would be doing much in the way of close moves, or dips, seducers, and drops. It just feels totally wrong. I think the term ‘seducers’ kind of makes this obvious; personally I don’t in the least want to be seduced by a woman! I have been dipped by a woman on a dips and drops workshop – I didn’t like it because she wasn’t strong enough (in fact she dropped me on the floor once) but even so, it didn’t feel right.

  17. #37
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    What would make me feel very uncomfortable would be doing much in the way of close moves, or dips, seducers, and drops. It just feels totally wrong. I think the term ‘seducers’ kind of makes this obvious; personally I don’t in the least want to be seduced by a woman! I have been dipped by a woman on a dips and drops workshop – I didn’t like it because she wasn’t strong enough (in fact she dropped me on the floor once) but even so, it didn’t feel right. [/QUOTE]

    i agree which is why i always make sure i give a bit more space to my follow if she is a lady..(maybe if it was a male..mmm )
    i don't think it appropriate for women to lead drops/dips or lifts especially in a workshop or class. in my class we are always given an alternative move. fine if it is two women who know each other and confident of each others ability.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    As a taxi dancer (and even pre taxi dancing) i take the role as a lead in class... At first (a couple of years ago) I did have a couple of women in class who would not want to dance with me in class but nowadays more often than not they are glad to get me as I know what I am doing...

    As a female taxi we are encouraged to be a female if at all possible in order to help the new guys but if there are an excessive amount of spare females it is considered acceptable for us to lead the class. Also when taxi ing I try to dance with male and female beginners.. and have had no complaints

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    I'm sure they can speak for themselves, but outside of a class environment, women seem to dance with women as a matter of course.

    I tend to believe that many female leads don't lead or follow well, and it isn't something to encourage too early from a technique point of view - but that's a different question.

    Sean
    I dance with anyone who asks me and sometimes I will grab a woman I know for a particular song because I simply love to lead that song and feel that I can express myself better by leading it

    I don't agree about the follow / lead not being as good if you do both but I do agree that it shouldn't be encouraged to women to lead too early.. I admit that i did do this (because I got bored following .. short attention span me... ) and it affected my following for a long time.. I terribly anticipated for ages... Now tho.. with lots of practice etc I am a lot better a follow .. to be honest I enjoy following now as much as I enjoy leading.. it just depends on the song and who I can grab for a dance!


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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Imagine you do get two women or two men coming to a Ceroc evening together, though, and wanting to learn how to dance with each other.

    Should they be made to practice only with each other separate from the rest of the class, even if they'd rather join in along with everyone else?

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