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Thread: Lady leaders in the line-up

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    Lady leaders in the line-up

    Moved from the "What do you suggest?" thread as it deals with a different issue – ducasi

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    There is a lady at chelmsford that i cant stand when i first noticed her she was pushing (physically) the brand new beginner who was behind her in the queue forward so that it meant she didnt have to dance with another woman in the line next to me while saying at the top of her voice i am not dancing with a woman again
    She completely knocked the confidence of the new female taxi who was standing next to me and the person she pushed in front never returned to chelmsford
    It is not good to push people around, but a lady dancing as a man in rotation, is a whole new topic and a whole new problem.

    Has been debated at length, should you be forced to dance with someone of the same sex in a rotation.

    I am very sorry for the new beginner, but for the taxi dancer who is a woman, dancing as a man, I am happy her confidence got knocked. I would hope she learnt from this, not to assume she can fill in as a man and it is acceptable to all.
    Last edited by ducasi; 6th-November-2008 at 11:32 AM. Reason: moved

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I am very sorry for the new beginner, but for the taxi dancer who is a woman, dancing as a man, I am happy her confidence got knocked. I would hope she learnt from this, not to assume she can fill in as a man and it is acceptable to all.
    i completely disagree with
    it is almost the norm for women to dance with women as in general there are far more women in a class than men and if the taxi had not been dancing as a man that would have meant two more ladies in the queue
    I also disagree as lady taxis are generally required to learn the lead moves
    It has been spoken about many times on here as lead and follow rather than mans moves and ladies moves
    I have no problem dancing with a man (although only as a lead as i havent taken the time to learn as a follow) Personally i think it should be the norm that men can be follows in the class although this will take a long time to sort out believe me i think it will come eventually (probably when modern jive is refered to as oldye tyme dancing lol)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I am very sorry for the new beginner, but for the taxi dancer who is a woman, dancing as a man, I am happy her confidence got knocked. I would hope she learnt from this, not to assume she can fill in as a man and it is acceptable to all.
    do you really believe this?

    It is my experience that many female taxi dancers are made to dance as men during classes in order to even out the numbers. In addition they must dance as men to show women how to dance in the review class and in the freestyles afterwards.

    I was wondering if you have ever tried Tango. Then there is a philosophy that men should dance with men, as is/was the case in Argentina. When I first came across this it felt very alien but now now when there is more men in a class and there are other men who are prepared to, I dance with them and I find that I learn as much if not more by following than I did leading.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i completely disagree with
    Happy for you to disagree...

    After all it is a forum of views.

    Most people agree, let's look after the beginners and encorage them to come back.

    When it comes to dancing with the same sex, dancing with trannies, doing stuff we would not normally do... I am not sure this is... let's teach dance... more about those few who want to do stuff, at the expense of others.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    do you really believe this?
    Yes, in MJ, people come to class expecting to dance with someone of the opposite sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    It is my experience that many female taxi dancers are made to dance as men during classes in order to even out the numbers. In addition they must dance as men to show women how to dance in the review class and in the freestyles afterwards.
    Well, we often get more men that women locally, but even if that were not so... many beginners get freaked, having to dance same sex.
    Of course all the good teachers can do both male and female roles - most of them learn at the back of the class on a one to one basis, or they practice at home, or in the lobby.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I was wondering if you have ever tried Tango. Then there is a philosophy that men should dance with men, as is/was the case in Argentina. When I first came across this it felt very alien but now now when there is more men in a class and there are other men who are prepared to, I dance with them and I find that I learn as much if not more by following than I did leading.
    I have done tango, and I am happy to dance with men... I will also defend the right for people not to have to dance same sex.

    There are 2 gay guys I really love dancing with, and a few straight guys I have fun dancing with... In rotation, people should not be forced to dance same sex IMHO.

    This is getting a bit of topic... sorry for that!

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Yes, in MJ, people come to class expecting to dance with someone of the opposite sex.
    ... I will also defend the right for people not to have to dance same sex.
    I suppose that when women taxi dancers dance as men then there is a balance between evening out numbers and women expecting to dance with men. There seems to some fuctionality to that. However I do notice that women dance as men when they are not taxis so there is no functionality and I wonder if that is correct?

    It does seem to me though that women are more comforable dancing with each other than men are with each other.

    That got me thinking. Even in the Tango scenarios I am thinking of we only use practise hold and I would feel very uncomfortable if it was a close embrace, as would be the case in MJ.

    Therefore I understand where you are coming from but you are talking as a guy from a female perspective and so maybe overdoing it a bit.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    In rotation, people should not be forced to dance same sex IMHO.
    you are right there of course but my comment was due to the way she did it not the fact that she didnt want to dance with a woman
    i would have had a lot more respect for her if she had said so to the beginner and not rudely shove her out of the way especially as the lady in question had been dancing for a few months and the lady she pushed was a first timer.
    Which brings us neatly back on topic I hate dancing with her now i dislike the woman but still have to dance with her in the line

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Has been debated at length, should you be forced to dance with someone of the same sex in a rotation.

    I am very sorry for the new beginner, but for the taxi dancer who is a woman, dancing as a man, I am happy her confidence got knocked. I would hope she learnt from this, not to assume she can fill in as a man and it is acceptable to all.
    It is common practice, at least in places I've been, for female taxi dancers to take the role of the leader in beginner's class where there is an excess of women, and few brand new beginner males.

    If a woman doesn't want to be led by a woman in a class, then they simply shouldn't do the class.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I danced as a taxi a lead for about 4 years and I am sure there were women who preferred to dance with a man rather than me but there were others who said oh good can you show me what I should do.

    But this thread could open up a whole can of worms in as much when you go around the class as a woman there are plenty of men you don’t particularly want to dance with but out of politeness and etiquette we all do so why not afford the female leads the same respect.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Yes, in MJ, people come to class expecting to dance with someone of the opposite sex.
    I go to a class in order to learn to dance. In the UK, it is the norm in both MJ and Salsa for women to lead, particularly in classes because of the usual ratio of male to female in a typical class. I'm not even sure why a man would need to have a strong opinion on if women would expect to dance with other women in a class.

    We even have classes where female teachers lead - although that can get distracting at times

    Sean

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I am very sorry for the new beginner, but for the taxi dancer who is a woman, dancing as a man, I am happy her confidence got knocked. I would hope she learnt from this, not to assume she can fill in as a man and it is acceptable to all.
    What complete *. I am sorry but under no should anyone say something that knocks the confidence of another.

    Dancing is all about confidence and I think it great that she has decided to learn to lead. Being Male/female has nothing to do with dance and the sex of a leader has nothing to do with how they are treated either.

    I have had my confidence know a few times and it really affected my dancing badly, to the point I nearly stopped at one time.

    I now understand the people who I danced with were basic know it all tw*, who were only average dances. They often have been dancing years and not improved their dance much past the 1 year stage. So I now know to smile at there ignorance.

    One thing I have learned is to be very careful about comments. Their are ppl I hate dancing with my friend refers to one of them as a female bull dog, her expression is menacing.

    I am always polite and dance to my best, we are there to enjoy after all. Sadly many of the offenders are female and just want to go there to have great dances and seam to have no interest in helping men improve. I can understand that point of view, but personally I enjoy the challenge of trying to make beginners look good.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I was wondering if you have ever tried Tango. Then there is a philosophy that men should dance with men, as is/was the case in Argentina.
    Well, yeah, but only within that historical context. That said, it's a good tradition.

    I had the pleasure of following Rhythm King for a few minutes last Thursday, for example - poor guy

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    women would expect to dance with other women in a class.
    Sean
    the question is do they?

    I take the view (as a man -and I would feel uncomfortable with the reverse) that there is functionality with women taxi dancers leading.

    However when women take it upon themselves to lead in a class as a private individual, almost certainly without the permission of every woman there is that correct? I don't think so.

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    I was about to write, I don't know what all the fuss is about and that I can't understand people not wanting to dance with the same sex etc..

    but then I remembered a guy who used to be a regular at one of the clubs in London. He was an older guy, with long grey hair, which he sometimes wore in bunches, sometimes he wore sandals with painted toenails and fingernails and women's clothes too and often but not always did the lesson as a follow.

    Now I confess, I used to feel very uncomfortable dancing with him, I can't say why but I did and therefore, I can imagine how some of the men felt, when he took the ladies part.

    At the end of the day, none of what we do is compulsory but unfortunately, I do feel it would probably reflect rather badly on the person who dared to stand their ground, make a fuss and publicly refuse someone in the line-up.

    I say, grin and bare it, after all, its only a couple of minutes and people will know, its not your choice anyway
    Last edited by Lory; 6th-November-2008 at 12:08 PM.
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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I
    I say, grin and bare it, after all, its only a couple of minutes and people will know, its not your choice anyway
    I agree with what you say when faced with the problem but surely the question is - should we be facing the problem at all?

    And I was wondering if a poll would be a good idea for this thread? any chance?

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    the question is do they?
    I'm sure they can speak for themselves, but outside of a class environment, women seem to dance with women as a matter of course.

    I tend to believe that many female leads don't lead or follow well, and it isn't something to encourage too early from a technique point of view - but that's a different question.

    Sean

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    I tend to believe that many female leads don't lead or follow well
    What do you base this belief on?

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    What do you base this belief on?
    Well - many male leads don't lead or follow well, so perhaps he's simply extrapolating?

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    I'm sure they can speak for themselves,
    Sean
    In a line up that is not neccessaily the case. You are forced into the position of dancing lady on lady.

    I agree you can still say no but then the aggrevation of that would probabally outweigh the benefit of refusing.

    The question is should ladies be put in that position in the first place, especially with a non taxi lady?

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    Re: Lady leaders in the line-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I am happy her confidence got knocked. I would hope she learnt from this, not to assume she can fill in as a man and it is acceptable to all.
    Colour me confused. Why would it ever be a good thing to knock someone's confidence? Plus - I infer from what you say that you assume the taxi to be a bad leader - if that's the case, what are you basing that assumption on? (Anyone would think your manly leading status was in some way under threat )

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