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Thread: What do you suggest?!

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Does your current class start their routines with the words "semi-circle to the left and both step back"? Both are wrong and the "both step back" will encourage tugging. The semi-circle will encourage hand bouncing and other bad habits.
    You never let me down !!

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    You never let me down !!
    We aim to please

    The more I see of the dancing that comes from the SCTTL&BSB the more I have to accept that MJ will never be on Strictly

    Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help. It really does make my blood boil when I see teachers step off the stage and spend the rest of the night chatting with the DJ or dancing with the good dancers.

    And all this poorly taught dancing means that there are many people out there who are making it difficult for their partners to lead or follow. This results in debates about refusing people dances.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    We aim to please

    The more I see of the dancing that comes from the SCTTL&BSB the more I have to accept that MJ will never be on Strictly

    Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help. It really does make my blood boil when I see teachers step off the stage and spend the rest of the night chatting with the DJ or dancing with the good dancers.

    And all this poorly taught dancing means that there are many people out there who are making it difficult for their partners to lead or follow. This results in debates about refusing people dances.
    I'm demoing tonight and will in the Ceroc Essentials bit at the start have to perform the SCTTL&BSB - it's okay from stationary (although I never do it in freestyle), but nigh on impossible to do consistently in and out in and out - it's the only bit of the demo I struggle with !

  4. #24
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help.
    Well, but that's built-in to all MJ classes, isn't it? They're all large-scale, instructive, and non-interactive. That's the way they're designed. So it's hardly surprising there's little interaction after the class, that "sheep" attitude is built-in.

    When was the last time a regular MJ class was taught to a (deliberately) small audience, in the round, and with feedback?

    (The answer you're looking for here is "never", by the way)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    ... This individual obviously takes herself very seriously, and was very put-out to have to dance with a beginner (not sure why given her clumpy movement and heavy handed follow).

    I was a little upset actually, and do not wish to dance with her again. I do not wish to engage in a slagging match with her, its not what I go out for, - I'd rather just avoid.

    What am I to do next time I have to change partners and i'm faced with her sour face?

    Asking the bloke next to me if he would like to swap is going to sound plain weird! I don't want to cause a fuss!

    I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her, - but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again


    What to do!??!
    I'm sorry to hear this but at least, as you say, for every one bad apple, there's 300 good ones.

    Unsurprisingly, I'm in the grin & bear it camp. But the funny thing is, you may find that you can get an innate satisfaction from this.

    I'm thinking about whenever I'm forced into this kind of situation (not at dancing, I'm thinking more of my role as a union rep, for example) - the more someone is nasty/outrageous/losing control, the more polite and sickeningly nice I try to be to them.

    This really unnerves them because they want to be horrible to you, but can't actually find a valid reason to be. And you're left feeling smug and blameless.

    Rachel

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm afraid the lead is still the problem.
    My suggestion is that you find another class where the ladies are taught to follow properly
    What statement is correct?
    It seems that not only are you discriminatory you also want your cake and eat it.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    I'm thinking about whenever I'm forced into this kind of situation (not at dancing, I'm thinking more of my role as a union rep, for example) - the more someone is nasty/outrageous/losing control, the more polite and sickeningly nice I try to be to them.

    This really unnerves them because they want to be horrible to you, but can't actually find a valid reason to be. And you're left feeling smug and blameless.

    Rachel

    Also, you may be observed by other follows and be viewed as a nice friendly unshakeable chap who doesn't even get riled by someone being horrible to him!

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    ....(not at dancing, ...
    Actually, I have just remembered a 'dancing' situation I was in recently. And believe me, many many people heard about it afterwards - partly cos I was so incensed and disbelieving, and partly cos it was so funny.

    It was at a recent weekender and I made one of my very rare visits from the blues room to the main room. I ended up having a dance with someone I barely knew, and with whom I'd never danced before. I thought the dance was ok'ish - though very 'main room' if you like, forceful, and with several drops thrown in for good measure.

    Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.

    I did think about arguing back along the lines of 'different dance styles ... don't like so much force ... try the blues room ...' etc, but then thought, what's the point? Either we stand here arguing, when I have no chance of changing his opinion, or we leave it at that and both get on with finding someone more compatible.

    So I just smiled as nicely as I could, tried out all the points he was trying to demonstrate to me, and thanked him for all the useful feedback.

    I still find it funny to think about to this day. But I am also angry because, if he had given that criticism to someone new or on their very first weekend, how likely is it that it could have ruined their whole night?

    R. x

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I think that is very unfair.
    You must be lucky - because I have had bad experiences with followers, fighting your lead all the time, pulling your arm off, pushing off you for a spin, actually shoving you round to lead you, crashing into drops you have not led.

    It does not seem right that if I refuse to dance with a woman that I have had a bad experience with I should have to dance with them again for fear of being told to leave, when they can refuse to dance with me without that threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    On the subject of dancing with follows as described above, I'm afraid the lead is still the problem. A fight requires two people. When you say you are having your arm pulled off you are meeting that tug with a tug of your own. You are 50% responsible for the tension. I do get ladies who try to tug at my arm: I don't let them do it too me and simply let them take my hand in the direction they are tugging: if they keep on tugging I step towards them rather than meet their force with an equal and opposite force. It doesn't mean I enjoy the experience, but it does mean I retain control of the dance. I occasionally have ladies hijack the lead: it's part of the dance and you should let them do it to you. On the subject of un-led drops, I really do not have a problem with this on the dance floor - perhaps they think drops are being led. My advice is to speak with them when you save them from falling on the floor. Remember, they are trying as hard as they can to be a good follow - they are not doing it on purpose.
    this of course is just pure arrogance on your part andy

    I have never met you or had one of your classes yet whenever you mention your classes on here you seem to demonstrate a complete disregard to how the dancers in your class feel

    We are not all dance gods like yourself us mere mortals have to dance with a variety of follows who demonstrate that they neither know (or in a lot of cases want to know) how to follow and when you mention to them that maybe it might be better if they did something rather than pull your arm off they say I know and then go and pull your arm again
    with no chance of enjoying a dance like that why should a lead (and i dont mean crew who when they take on the job accept they will get some bad dances) have to put up with it and say yes politely to every follow that asks for a dance
    The dont say no rule is there to promote confidence in all dancers not just the follows

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Of course it's not just the SCTTL&BSB it's the complete lack of feedback from some teachers to students that doesn't help. It really does make my blood boil when I see teachers step off the stage and spend the rest of the night chatting with the DJ or dancing with the good dancers.

    And all this poorly taught dancing means that there are many people out there who are making it difficult for their partners to lead or follow. This results in debates about refusing people dances.
    now naturally i agree with the above

    Any teacher or taxi or demo who either chats all night or only dances with the better dancers should not being doing the job
    i know from this and a lot of your posts that you are passionate about the dance unfortunately you come across as saying your the only good teacher there is and that unless its taught your way it cant be right unfortunately
    this it what makes you sound arrogant and with a complete disrespect for other people

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.
    Well, finally!

    Boy, I'm glad someone had the guts to tell you that, we've all been debating how to mention it for, oooh, years now...

    Now all we have to do is find someone to tell Lily...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    I still find it funny to think about to this day. But I am also angry because, if he had given that criticism to someone new or on their very first weekend, how likely is it that it could have ruined their whole night?
    OK, seriously, this is why I rarely give un-requested feedback (I would say "never", but that's not true - but certainly no more than a couple of times a year).

    In a social dance, you dance with your partner, you thank them, and that's it. If you want to teach, then become a teacher, is my attitude. And if you want to learn, then pay a professional.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    I tell people that they should behave as ladies and gentlemen and be polite. I explain that we are not at "speed dating" we are at a dance class and an invitation for a dance is that and no more. I ask the ladies to always accept an invitation from a man they have never danced with before - why would they refuse a request for a dance at a dance class? But I say that they should not be expected to accept a second invitation to dance from a guy if they really didn't like dancing with him - but they should refuse graciously! As far as the guys go I tell them that a gentleman would NEVER refuse a lady a dance and that we ONLY have gentlemen at our classes. So far this change hasn't caused any problems and I've only had one guy who persistently broke the rules, refusing all the middle-aged ladies and hitting on the slim and pretty ladies - he was told to leave by one of our middle aged female crew the second time he refused her a dance! I think she quite enjoyed telling him
    Spot on....but I do feel the guy should have the same rights not to dance with some one if they have danced before and it just hasn't worked.
    Last edited by Jay Jay; 6th-November-2008 at 02:28 PM.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    On the subject of dancing with follows as described above, I'm afraid the lead is still the problem. A fight requires two people. When you say you are having your arm pulled off you are meeting that tug with a tug of your own. You are 50% responsible for the tension. I do get ladies who try to tug at my arm: I don't let them do it too me and simply let them take my hand in the direction they are tugging:
    How does that work when someone tugs excessively at the anchor of a slot then?

    I had a dance like that a while back.

    No matter what compensation strategies I tried - and believe me, I tried a lot - she "compensated" back. If I loosened my hold, she gripped harder. If I allowed more elasticity, she took it. And so on. Moving forwards wasn't an appropriate response - it's at the anchor phase, remember. In short, she genuinely and consciously thought that "over-tugging" during the anchor phase was a good thing to do.

    So, to compensate, I simply didn't dance slotty, I danced in other ways - but then I had that option. A less experienced dancer wwould have been stuffed. Sometimes, there's no way to work around a problem without changing the context - within the context of the problem you either have to accept it, stop the dance, or wrestle with your follower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Remember, they are trying as hard as they can to be a good follow - they are not doing it on purpose.
    That's fine if the follower is simply inexperienced, or doesn't know what to do. It's much more difficult - as in my example above - if the follower has clear views, which are wrong.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post

    Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.

    R. x
    there ya go i think he was probably right perhaps mark can help you learn to dance properly instead of just as a hobby
    Now to be honest you were one of the few that i was nervous about dancing with at breeze never having danced with you before yet having heard a lot about you
    Having said that when we did dance i found you to be an absolute pleasure to be with not scarey at all and certainly not hard to lead then i am one of those guys who likes to stand still and watch his partner dance (oops thats let me secrets out ) so no need for forceful leads etc

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    this of course is just pure arrogance on your part andy
    Mmmm - to be fair, I think he has a point (on the technical aspects, anyway). Take the obvious (arm-pulling) issue - when dancing with an extremely forceful follow, there's a very powerful instinct to match the force she (or he) is using, and to try to lead by being stronger.... or to try to defend oneself by brute strength. We often do this quite unconsciously - I certainly used to.

    As Andy says - no follower is going to be doing this deliberately (unless she really hates you ) - it's often down to a lack of physical awareness - and that can work both ways... it could be a response to the fact that the lead is using more strength than he/she had shought), so if you start using more force to counter it, she'll unconsciously try to 'match' that, and so goes the train to Pain City. In other words - most painful 'arm tugging' incidents that I've experienced have been a result of an unintended escalating tug-of-war arms race, fuelled by both parties.

    Nowadays, if I encounter a follow who is using a painful amount of strength on me, I don't try to fight it, or even match it - I do the opposite and gentle my lead down, often by a vast amount. Normally, she (or he) will do the same. If they continue to use a painful amount of strength, I'll still not fight it, but will quite often start following them, which can be quite fun. There's always something positive to take away from this stuff.

    Oh - and last time a follower self-led themselves into a drop with me, they got exactly that (because I promptly let go). But then it was a guy, a fair bit bigger than me, and I had a dodgy back, so I figured that if one of us had to get hurt, I'd rather be selfish about it. Maybe I'm a bad person

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    It's much more difficult - as in my example above - if the follower has clear views, which are wrong.
    I don't usually comment on people's dancing without them asking for advice, but if I'm leading a regular venue follower who tugs or try to lead, whether they're intermediate level or not I tend to stop and just say firmly I'm leading. Usually in our venues it helps when they're dancing with me - not sure if they then apply it when dancing with other people. Most of the people at those venues don't see themselves as superior to everyone else's dancing though so maybe that's where it's harder to say something.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Jay View Post
    Spot on....but I do feel the guy should have the same rights not to dance with some one if they have danced before and it just hasn't worked.
    It's a difficult call. How bad was that follower that you really must say no? Last night I'd love to have turned down a lady - I'd rather not dance with her at all as I have to manage her always seeming to be behind the beat with her footwork. One of my all-time favourite tracks came on and I could see one of my favourite partners was available. However, it's just one track, I survived and I didn't upset a lady.

    I really do think it's the difference between lead and follow. If you consider your body is a vehicle for your person, why should you let someone drive/lead when you've seen how they drive and think they might cause an accident - especially if they've taken you for a spin recently On the other hand, you adjust your driving style if you're driving a vehicle that's a bit slow or doesn't turn as well as most cars on the road.

    Although some people will see it as arrogance when I tell them that's what they need to do
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 6th-November-2008 at 02:59 PM.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.
    Oh dear Rachel, it goes without saying that there is never any excuse for such rudeness, but oh the irony of choosing you to say it to, obviously the first time he was fortunate enough to dance with a classically trained dancer who is not only as a light as a feather to lead but who can be led into anything that is leadable by someone who can lead.

    It would have been interesting to see his face with you and Marc doing your stuff in front of him - f**kwit !!

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It's a difficult call. How bad was that follower that you really must say no?
    Although some people will see it as arrogance when I tell them that's what they need to do
    thing is your the teacher/owner are you not
    why should someone be they lead or follow pay you to have to dance with someone they just dont want to dance with for whatever reason.

    As i said before the dont say no to a dance rule in ceroc is in order to build confidence in people both the lead and follow hence its for both partys

    As for the arrogance its that you obviously think you can do no wrong
    I think some of the independents have too many rules sometimes and obviously by the way you tell us you enforce them they are not there to help social dancers just hotshots

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It's a difficult call. How bad was that follower that you really must say no?
    Also true.....and like you say it is only one dance .

    ...but when it is the last dance of the evening and you want to end on a high or like you say a track that you adore comes on and one of your favourite dancers is available that would definitely go on the 'What Made You Frown Today' thread, but I would have to have an extremely valid reason to say no.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    Anyway, at the end of the dance, just when I'd said thank you and was about to walk away, this person decided to tear me off a strip and tell me what an appalling dancer I was. I was 'totally unleadable', 'impossible to dance with', had 'no connection whatsoever', etc etc. And then proceded to tell me exactly how I should be dancing.
    Rachel.......I hadn't heard that story, but I just find it unbelievable that some one is so blinkered in their thinking that no way could it have been down to their leading and on top of that to then proceed to tell you, I'm sorry but that is just downright rude.

    I had a dance once that turned in to an unwanted lesson by someone with no musicality whatsoever and he was actually trying to show me totally incorrect moves...some people huh?

    Constructive criticism is fine but then again depends who is giving it to you.

    Over your head Rach, over your head

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