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Thread: What do you suggest?!

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    What do you suggest?!

    Sorry - weird one this.

    The club i go to is full of lovely friendly people, - but I guess you're always going to get 'bad apples' wherever you go in life, - unfortunately, 'this' bad apple is a very regular, regular.

    Cutting a long story short, a women I danced with last night was very rude to me, - its not what you expect on a ceroc night is it, - I thought everyone was out to have fun, have a dance etc.

    This individual obviously takes herself very seriously, and was very put-out to have to dance with a beginner (not sure why given her clumpy movement and heavy handed follow).


    I was a little upset actually, and do not wish to dance with her again. I do not wish to engage in a slagging match with her, its not what I go out for, - I'd rather just avoid.

    What am I to do next time I have to change partners and i'm faced with her sour face?

    Asking the bloke next to me if he would like to swap is going to sound plain weird! I don't want to cause a fuss!

    I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her, - but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again


    What to do!??!

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Cut off your hand?

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    Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Cut off your hand?
    hide away in a cupboard

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    Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    To put it bluntly, you have very few choices if you really don't want to have any contact with this woman in the lesson. Almost all those choices are about not doing the lesson at all. The only other option is to ask a nice lady if she will do the lesson with you as a fixed couple at the back of the room. It's anti-social, but it's better than not doing the lesson at all.

    The other option is to actually speak with the woman off the dance floor and tell her how she has made you feel. If you get the right reaction you can go back to normal - if you get the wrong reaction you can find a fixed partner. My other advice is to remember that not all people are sane. There are mentally ill people out there and some of them go dancing. If this woman is being rude to everyone you shouldn't take it personally. If she is being rude to everyone she probably won't remember you in particular.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post

    I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her,
    What to do!??!
    sadly in a changing partner class you should do just that although you dont need to smile
    There is a lady at chelmsford that i cant stand when i first noticed her she was pushing (physically) the brand new beginner who was behind her in the queue forward so that it meant she didnt have to dance with another woman in the line next to me while saying at the top of her voice i am not dancing with a woman again
    She completely knocked the confidence of the new female taxi who was standing next to me and the person she pushed in front never returned to chelmsford
    Unfortunately she seems to think i like her and tries to make a bee line for me when we are in the same room i do the shark technique and make sure she cant get close enough to ask for a dance but in the line i have no choice but to put up and shut up so i smile sweetly say hello then i just look straight through her for the minute or so that she is in front of me.

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    Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    To put it bluntly, you have very few choices....

    The other option is to actually speak with the woman off the dance floor ....
    I agtree with every thing that Andy has said. The only thing I would add is before you speak to the woman directly, if that is what you decide, speak to the venue manager. Its more than likely that you are not the only person that has had a problem with this woman and so they may speak to her for you.

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    Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    What am I to do next time I have to change partners and i'm faced with her sour face?
    I think you have answered that one below...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her.
    It is probably not "you", it is probably how "she is" - which you can rise above and switch off, and go through the motions in class.

    You do not have to "dance" with her, just follow the motions in class and move on to happier partners in the line.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again


    What to do!??!
    I am not holier than thou, I have once in the past let it get to me, not taken my own advice above
    (another long story! )

    I still think it best to move on, smile and see it as thier problem and not yours.
    Pray hard the teacher moves people on quickly, and smile .

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    At one class I us to go to, there was a touchy feely old man. Used to 'accidentally' touch every woman he danced with both in class and freestyle.

    In the end, during the class rotation, almost all the women would 'go to the loo' when their turn to dance with him came around.

    If it was me, I would have some fun with this woman. When it came to getting her in the class I would either deliberately get it all wrong or just stand there and not move during my turn with her and then say something like 'oh are we meant to have started?'.

    Though you are prob really best going with Martins advice or maybe Andy's.

    What did she say?

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    Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    , - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again
    Holding hands with strangers is an essential part of MJ
    As you say classes are full of lovely friendly people, so if you have to holds hands with someone you donít get on with, just grin and bear it

    Or as you have suggest, stand next to mate and swap places

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    Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Sorry...bit of a story here.

    After I'd been dancing for a while, I quickly realised that MJ was pretty much going to be a big part of my life and I desperately wanted my husband to give it a go so that we didn't just drift apart in to completely different social worlds.

    Anyway, I managed to persuade him to go along one night and he quite enjoyed it and was willing to keep going until he got the hang of it but the next week he went some woman was so rude to him, he couldn't face going again.

    He'd plucked up the courage to ask someone for a dance in freestyle and she just basically ranted at him how she doesn't like dancing with beginners, she doesn't do charity, too many bloody beginners, etc, etc.

    So that was that. His confidence was rock bottom and he never went again.

    I'm not saying it's related, but we were divorced 6 months later. Him being a non-dancers certainly didn't help things.

    From my own personal experience, I don't think venue organisers do enough to ensure that intermediate and advanced dancers make an effort with beginners. I know they have taxi dancers, etc, but I've never heard a teacher ask the non-beginners to be nice to new comers. I think they are too worried about upsetting them.

    I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post


    I could be 'mature' about it, smile and dance with her, - but to be honest, - I don't want this horrid misery of a women to touch my hand ever again


    What to do!??!
    I should think everyone on here has had someone make a negative comment to them at some time, it is not nice or helpful but it happens.

    My advice to you is take the mature route you don’t have to ask her to dance in freestyle but if you get her in a lesson remember it is for a very short time, so be the better person and enjoy the moving on bit

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    Martin (6th-November-2008), Phil_dB (6th-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Whatever you do don't do what I did.

    there was one "follow" in Aberdeen who took her dancing terribly seriously. She asked me in the freestyle and I proceeded to do my limited repertoire of moves. You could tell she was bored within seconds and she started forcably backleading me into moves I'd not done/ not liked before. so i ..ahem.. asserted my lead slightly (I didn't force myself.. i just gave a stronger lead) her face was like thunder.. how dare I a mere beginner (in her eyes) try and LEAD for pity's sakes.

    Anyway it got to the point when ever I danced with her she'd frown and try to backlead and I wouldn't let her and in the end I took a several month sabbatical from dancing (of course.. knowing me any excuse not to dance would do really!)

    It's people like that that mean I'm still a "beginner" despite dancing since 2003. I go for a while, get my confidence knocked then leave for ages.. of course when i eventually return (as I invariably do) it's back to square one again.

    You're better to persevere , and if she asks you to dance politely refuse, and in the meantime keep dancing with others and practice,practice,practice so that the time will soon come when she'll sit there in awe as you dance gracefully around the floor and she'll rue the day she critisised you.

    Now .. if only I could follow my own advice

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    Phil_dB (21st-November-2008)

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    He'd plucked up the courage to ask someone for a dance in freestyle and she just basically ranted at him how she doesn't like dancing with beginners, she doesn't do charity, too many bloody beginners, etc, etc.
    A lump of a miserable grumpy woman did that to me in one of my first few times - I say hello if I get her in the class but to this day I won't go near her in freestyle, it nearly did ruin it for me and stop me going.

    The odd thing is that when I was a beginner she looked good but is in fact clumpy and out of time and she now has the pleasure of watching me on the stage demonstrate knowing I will never ask her.

    Conversely I have a great deal of time and affinity for the women who were kind and patient towards me when I started.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    From my own personal experience, I don't think venue organisers do enough to ensure that intermediate and advanced dancers make an effort with beginners. I know they have taxi dancers, etc, but I've never heard a teacher ask the non-beginners to be nice to new comers. I think they are too worried about upsetting them.

    I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.
    I think that we do too much. I think it's the culture of never saying "no" that sometimes causes the problem. Women feel forced to dance with people when they'd rather not do so. Because of this they sometimes dance in a grudging and grumpy fashion.

    Just recently I've changed my advice from "never say no". Nowadays I'm unashamedly sexist when it comes to asking people to dance. I tell people that they should behave as ladies and gentlemen and be polite. I explain that we are not at "speed dating" we are at a dance class and an invitation for a dance is that and no more. I ask the ladies to always accept an invitation from a man they have never danced with before - why would they refuse a request for a dance at a dance class? But I say that they should not be expected to accept a second invitation to dance from a guy if they really didn't like dancing with him - but they should refuse graciously! As far as the guys go I tell them that a gentleman would NEVER refuse a lady a dance and that we ONLY have gentlemen at our classes. So far this change hasn't caused any problems and I've only had one guy who persistently broke the rules, refusing all the middle-aged ladies and hitting on the slim and pretty ladies - he was told to leave by one of our middle aged female crew the second time he refused her a dance! I think she quite enjoyed telling him

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    .

    ladies...... should not be expected to accept a second invitation to dance from a guy if they really didn't like dancing with him - guys NEVER refuse a lady a dance
    Does that mean guys do not have the same rights of refusal as ladies?

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I imagine the low retention rate of beginners has a lot to do with bad experiences with rude/smelly/dangerous dancers.
    "Low" compared to what?

    I thought MJ had a high beginner retention rate - that's one of it's strengths, isn't it?

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Does that mean guys do not have the same rights of refusal as ladies?
    It's more about the lead and follow nature of the dance than anything else. My rule is really that nobody can refuse a dance - this is certainly the case for a someone you've not danced with before. The exception is where ladies/follows have previously had a bad experience with a man/lead. My theory is that the guys are leading so they are choosing how the dance goes. If it does not go well I believe it's down to the lead rather than the follow. I believe a follow should be able to refuse to follow someone who leads them badly. Sometimes when I announce these rules I say "guys, if you get refused a lot it's probably your dancing rather than your looks - come and see me and we'll see what we can do to help".

    In partner dances it is well established that 99% of the time men lead and ladies follow. Therefore I happy to refer to them as ladies and gentlemen rather than follow and lead. Even when ladies lead or men follow, they do not do so regularly.

    I suppose my "exception" would equally apply to ladies asking to lead other ladies or men. However, that is in the small print and people would like to get into freestyle rather than hear me yabber on

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The exception is where ladies/follows have previously had a bad experience with a man/lead.
    I think that is very unfair.

    You must be lucky - because I have had bad experiences with followers, fighting your lead all the time, pulling your arm off, pushing off you for a spin, actually shoving you round to lead you, crashing into drops you have not led.

    It does not seem right that if I refuse to dance with a woman that I have had a bad experience with I should have to dance with them again for fear of being told to leave, when they can refuse to dance with me without that threat.

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Now .. if only I could follow my own advice


    Phil, I'm afraid that in class, you can only grit your teeth, grin and bear it. Taking up the suggestion that you do the class as fixed partners with someone is only a temporary fix, and ultimately will not do your dancing any favours. By being in the rotation, you get to experience doing the moves with lots of people with varying levels of experience and you will gain from that. You will also get a chance to get to know people as often it's the only chance you get to say "hello, how are you?" to familiar faces. And when you become a familiar face, you get asked to dance more. I fear that you will lose more than you will gain by doing permanent fixed partners - assuming that you can find enough women to do fixed partners every week, and that you don't get a very odd reputation by doing so!

    So, on a practical level, there are a few things that you can do:

    1. Have a word with the staff about this woman, and see if they have any advice on how to deal with her, or are willing to talk to her directly. You don't know how many other people find her unpleasent, and the venue needs to know.

    2. Remember that you never have to dance with this person in freestyle. You never have to ask her, and you never have to accept an offer of a dance. Even in class, you will probably only have contact with her for 1-2 minutes a week in rotation.

    3. Look forward to the pleasure of becoming a very good and popular dancer, and then continuing to ignore her, just like marcusj!

    4. Change venue. A bit drastic this one, but if it's ruining it that much for you, find somewhere else to dance. Just be aware that you might find someone else that you don't like either...

    And please, don't let this one woman who clearly has problems of her own ruin your pleasure in the class or dancing. Focus on all the really good and friendly dancers you meet, and hopefully she'll pale into insignificance

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    Re: What do you suggest?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I think that is very unfair.

    You must be lucky - because I have had bad experiences with followers, fighting your lead all the time, pulling your arm off, pushing off you for a spin, actually shoving you round to lead you, crashing into drops you have not led.

    It does not seem right that if I refuse to dance with a woman that I have had a bad experience with I should have to dance with them again for fear of being told to leave, when they can refuse to dance with me without that threat.
    Some things just aren't fair. In this case I think it's completely fair as the "follow" is the one doing the refusing. They are refusing to be driven badly.

    On the subject of dancing with follows as described above, I'm afraid the lead is still the problem. A fight requires two people. When you say you are having your arm pulled off you are meeting that tug with a tug of your own. You are 50% responsible for the tension. I do get ladies who try to tug at my arm: I don't let them do it too me and simply let them take my hand in the direction they are tugging: if they keep on tugging I step towards them rather than meet their force with an equal and opposite force. It doesn't mean I enjoy the experience, but it does mean I retain control of the dance. I occasionally have ladies hijack the lead: it's part of the dance and you should let them do it to you. On the subject of un-led drops, I really do not have a problem with this on the dance floor - perhaps they think drops are being led. My advice is to speak with them when you save them from falling on the floor. Remember, they are trying as hard as they can to be a good follow - they are not doing it on purpose.

    My suggestion is that you find another class where the ladies are taught to follow properly. Does your current class start their routines with the words "semi-circle to the left and both step back"? Both are wrong and the "both step back" will encourage tugging. The semi-circle will encourage hand bouncing and other bad habits.

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