Do 'great' dancers, need more, or less space?

[Lory]

Do, 'great' (experienced) dancers need more, or less, floor space than Mr average?

This question occurred to me on the way home from UTOPIA last night.

Although I had a fabulous evening and danced with some truly amazing dancers, once it got crowded, some of the dancing got a little 'stifled'

The thing is, I know all these guys have the ability to dance safely but then again, they're also having to make huge compromises to their dancing potential, which is a shame.

* more experienced, better floorcraft = less space?

* more experienced, dance more dynamically, with faster transitions, faster spins, bigger and more dramatic movements etc. = more space?

So, should the organisers allow 'more' or 'less' space, if they know their client base is going to be experienced

[Gojive]

Good question/topic Lory

Speaking as an (experienced - 10 yrs) rather than a 'great' dancer (and a leader - may be different for followers?...), I need space to be at my best. In fact your description of a dance being 'stifled' on a crowded floor, is exactly how I feel in that situation.

On a crowded floor, my brain is tuning in more to the people around me in order to avoid collisions, than perhaps to the music (and perhaps less so my partner).

I tend to avoid going to venues if I can, where I know there'll be crowded floors.

Others I'm sure, can find dance perfection in every small situation, but for me, more is more

[Poi Boi]

Wouldn't any level of dancer need more space?

The more experienced may want more space to add extra style and flair, the less experienced want more space so they can concentrate on their moves and not trying to avoid bumping into other couples.

No one needs less space, more experienced dancers will probably just be better at dealing with it ie changing style/floorcraft ect.

When you see finals in competitions, demonstrations etc, the dancers are given as much space as possible so that they can showcase as much as possible.

Personally, give me a near empty floor and im happy

[Andy McGregor]

I think "great" dancers need more space to be used to their full potential. However, I think that great dancers are like great cars. Of course a great car has a high top speed. But you need a German Autobahn to use the top speed. However, that car is still great in heavy traffic. Even when you're stopped you'd expect a fabulous sound system to entertain you.

I think that you'll still have a better dance experience with a great dancer on a crowded floor than you will with a lesser dancer. But you'd have had more fun with the great dancer if there'd been more space.

I think that part of the problem is that many people started their MJ journey hearing these words from their teacher "semi-circle to the left and both step back". I've spoken before about the semi-circle However, the habitual step back for the guy is worse on a crowded floor - the semi-circle is harmless in terms of safety. From a dancing point of view, nine times out of ten the guy should be stepping forward to maintain a proper distance. But worse, the guy is leading the lady's back-step and should be looking where that's going - which means he can't be looking where he's stepping back. So, he's stepping back into an area that he's not checked for danger or safety. Which means we have to leave a clear area behind each guy so that we don't get stepped on Therefore, a dance floor of people who've been taught to step back at the same time as leading a lady's back step is going to have partners taking up more space and there will be more collisions. A dance floor populated only by "great" dancers is unlikely to suffer this problem.

Perhaps part of the problem is mixing the "great" with the not-so-great.

[Feelingpink]

The organisers 'can' allow less space if they know their dancers are mainly experienced, because generally speaking, they will dance more safely with good floorcraft (accidents tend to happen when people are more enthusiastic and/or drunk rather than experienced, IMO).

However, if organisers want the experienced dancers to return, surely it's in their best interests to allow at least enough floorspace per dancer to so everyone can play and not rely on experienced dancers being able to dance on a sixpence to compensate for others taking up more of the floor. An overcrowded floor isn't fun for anyone and certainly highlights those with bad floorcraft, making it more dangerous for other dancers. Just because experienced dancers can usually dance safely in a smaller area doesn't mean they want to.

[ant]

Do, 'great' (experienced) dancers need more, or less, floor space than Mr average?

This question occurred to me on the way home from UTOPIA last night.

Although I had a fabulous evening and danced with some truly amazing dancers, once it got crowded, some of the dancing got a little 'stifled'
.....

Considering how successful the Utopia evenings are and how many more tickets they can sell I think the amount of space they make available surprisingly generous.

What struck me last night is how much more room WCSers need to dance compared to us MJers. It seems to me they work across a slot and so cannot adapt the amount of space they need to the situation.

On a more general point I think almost anybody would want more space and the more the better because this gives much more scope for the variety of dancing you can lead.

However on a crowded floor you just have to reduce the space you use go much more UCP with hip movement and body roll type moves, which I still find enjoyable.

I think when the amount of space available is very small I just enjoy the challenge of leading in those circumstances.

[Lory]

I tend to avoid going to venues if I can, where I know there'll be crowded floors.

Yes, but then you might have to avoid going where the best music is and all the best dancers go

The more experienced may want more space to add extra style and flair, the less experienced want more space so they can concentrate on their moves and not trying to avoid bumping into other couples.

Exactly my point!

I think that you'll still have a better dance experience with a great dancer on a crowded floor than you will with a lesser dancer. But you'd have had more fun with the great dancer if there'd been more space.

Perhaps part of the problem is mixing the "great" with the not-so-great.

Oooh can of worms time again! I don't think there's a way of solving this one. Cliquey cliquey!

However, if organisers want the experienced dancers to return, surely it's in their best interests to allow at least enough floorspace per dancer to so everyone can play and not rely on experienced dancers being able to dance on a sixpence to compensate for others taking up more of the floor.

Hmm, i'm not sure... if the venue's numbers are continually high, then why should they worry? Isn't in there best interest to make the biggest profit possible?

Personally, I'd pay more money, for more guaranteed space.

[Gojive]

Good question/topic Lory
I tend to avoid going to venues if I can, where I know there'll be crowded floors.

Yes, but then you might have to avoid going where the best music is and all the best dancers go

'All' the best dancers?....

To be honest, I find there are some fantastic dancers at even the smallest of venues.

Take last night for example - I went to a freestyle near Guildford, which had a turn out of something like 60 (very rough guess). However, there were two superb dancers (followers for me of course), and maybe 6 or so quite accomplished dancers. They, together with a music set that is right up my street (lots of Golden Oldies being played), meant I had a superb evening, and left on a real high.

Hmm, i'm not sure... if the venue's numbers are continually high, then why should they worry? Isn't in there best interest to make the biggest profit possible?

I guess this one comes down to whether an organiser is out to break even, or as you say, make a profit - perhaps depends on if it's a living for them or not?

[TA Guy]

I think that you'll still have a better dance experience with a great dancer on a crowded floor than you will with a lesser dancer. But you'd have had more fun with the great dancer if there'd been more space.

I have to disagree with that. From memory, I have better dances with somewhat lesser experienced dancers on an uncrowded floor than an excellent dancer on a crowded floor.

I find the stifling (great word) of the dance due to floorcraft required by insufficient space a real turn-off these days.

Besides, this bad floorcraft that seems to be implied here hardly flings the words 'great dancers' into my mind, or am I missing something ?

[Andy McGregor]

I have to disagree with that. From memory, I have better dances with somewhat lesser experienced dancers on an uncrowded floor than an excellent dancer on a crowded floor.

You've disagreed with something I haven't said Please re-read my earlier comment. Feel free to disagree with it, but please don't disagree with something I never said or make up a different meaning to the post I made.

[Lory]

Besides, this bad floorcraft that seems to be implied here hardly flings the words 'great dancers' into my mind, or am I missing something ?

I don't think we're talking about 'bad floorcraft'

Great leaders have the ability to make split second changes, they can abort moves, change direction, slow a spin down, be creative in close hold (and not only the Filthy Monkey way! ) they can alter the amount rein they allow the follower.
Great followers, can react to changes in a nano second, they know to keep their arms tucked in and not to throw themselves into drops etc.

Yes, all the above makes them great and 'safe' but nevertheless, is dancing like this, what its all about, when they've reached this standard?

[dave the scaffolder]

Well now personally I like space so I can spread out and mess about taking huge area's of the floor and injecting funny walks, hair pulls, simulated sex and a generall air of bigness into my dancing.

Give me a lot of space and I will use it all. Small space and I still try to give the best dance that I can but by and by......I like it large and flowing pips.

[Andy McGregor]

I find the stifling (great word) of the dance due to floorcraft required by insufficient space a real turn-off these days.

Besides, this bad floorcraft that seems to be implied here hardly flings the words 'great dancers' into my mind, or am I missing something ?

I do agree with the first bit. Great dancers end up dancing smaller and smaller to compensate for the giant back steps and circular dancing of the "semi-circle to the left and both step back" brigade. As space gets more limited it's better not to be on the same floor as the "both step back" dancers as you're dancing so small you might as well not be there at all.

[Lory]

I find the stifling (great word) of the dance due to floorcraft required by insufficient space a real turn-off these days.

And BTW to the above

[Lory]

Great dancers end up dancing smaller and smaller to compensate for the giant back steps and circular dancing

Actually, this is a very good point.. The very good and considerate dancers, do most of the compensating

[Gadget]

I use the space available to me. Whether this is an empty dance floor or shoulder-to-shoulder. (not that I profess to being a 'great dancer')

It's a variable you incorporate into your selection of moves and movements - it's part of the dance: Along with other variables like the experience of your partner, mood of the music, tempo, repertoire, your partner's musicality, how well you know them,...

Personally I like an active floor - space enough that you could (if you were inconsiderate enough) navigate yourself across the dance floor without any bumps or collisions. ... Then I can have fun sweeping myself and my partner through holes between dancers and finding spaces on various different parts of the dance floor.
Busier and there's too much risk of collision doing that - I keep to my amorphous space.
Busier and I have to resort to blues and body motion - not that I'm complaining

What space allows for is contrast between "normal" and "big" dancing - reduce the space and most people (who can/do use it) have to reduce the contrast. The best dancers seem to maintain good contrast no matter the space they have to dance in.

[Feelingpink]

...

Hmm, i'm not sure... if the venue's numbers are continually high, then why should they worry? Isn't in there best interest to make the biggest profit possible?

Personally, I'd pay more money, for more guaranteed space.

If the numbers are continually high with the dancers you want to attract, then no, I wouldn't worry in the short term, but I would definitely monitor feedback to make sure that the numbers stay high in the longer term. And yes, I'd also pay extra for guaranteed space.

[robd]

Looking at this very literally, all the 'space' you need is that occupied by your body and that of your partner at any one point within the dance but I get the 'gist' of what you are saying Lory. I don't know if it's an issue of 'great' or not so 'great' dancers though. My floorcraft is sometimes good and sometimes less good and I think many people are the same. When a floor is very busy I do get very irritated when the follower takes it upon themselves to abort a movement and or execute a direction change because they sense impending danger. I know this is absolutely as it should be, their first responsibility is to their wellbeing but it still irritates me as it implies a lack of faith in my ability to keep them safe and completely ruins any kind of flow that the dance has but I am veering off topic.

Personally, I prefer a lot of room to dance in especially for WCS as I like to travel and extend the slot, etc. However I know that's not always possible. The specific example you gave of Utopia last night I didn't find too bad. Last year there were a few occasions where it did seem overcrowded and in light of that feedback the organisers limited the total numbers back to, I think, 180 max.

[Baruch]

Besides, this bad floorcraft that seems to be implied here hardly flings the words 'great dancers' into my mind, or am I missing something ?

I think it's highly unlikely that all the dancers at any given event will be "great" dancers. There will always be people at all levels of dance ability, plus some inconsiderate idiots of whatever ability, a few stinkers, a smattering of yankers and a hotshot or two. I doubt there will ever be an MJ event where the floorcraft is consistently good.

[martingold]

as a great ancer myself (17 stone and 6ft tall) i take up more floor space than say someone who is lesser (ie 7 stone and 4 ft tall)
or did i get the wrong idea about this thread?