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Thread: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

  1. #121
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Well, Sean, you are well out of my league,
    Moondancer never think you are not good enough or that anyone is out of your league
    If they are not good enough to dance with anyone who wants to dance they certainly are not a good dancer
    Anyone who is any good (or who actually enjoys the dance for what it is) will find some fun in dancing with anyone at all be they first night begginers or the world champions
    I am not under any circumstances saying i am a good dancer but i will dance with anyone at all and enjoy almost all dances (some can be physically painful) no matter how experienced the follow is

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Moondancer never think you are not good enough or that anyone is out of your league
    If they are not good enough to dance with anyone who wants to dance they certainly are not a good dancer
    Anyone who is any good (or who actually enjoys the dance for what it is) will find some fun in dancing with anyone at all be they first night begginers or the world champions
    I am not under any circumstances saying i am a good dancer but i will dance with anyone at all and enjoy almost all dances (some can be physically painful) no matter how experienced the follow is
    AwwÖI wish all the good leads thought that, but I donít think they doÖI canít help knowing that a lot of the people I really want to dance with are so much better than me, so asking them is probably the only way Iíll get a dance. I donít think I have inflicted pain on anyone yet, but I canít kid myself that I can give a lead as good a dance as a more experienced follow can.

    To be honest, I donít have much idea of where I would assess my own dancing. Iím in that big cloudy area of Ďnot beginners any moreí but there are a lot of leagues within that smog. Iíve never seen myself jiving, and I donít really get a lot of feedback, so how would I know how far Iíve got to go to break into the blue sky leagues?

  3. #123
    Registered User Batgirl's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    I have kept away from this thread as I'm not interested in the nastiness and pettiness that is sometimes demonstrated on the forum.
    I, like Moondancer, am in the no mans land after beginner and before the next step - its hard to get genuine feedback on your dancing and I too search out the best leads.
    I am not above 'queueing' for a dance with a favourite and understand that if I wait to be asked I may as well stay home.
    I think that DTS's intentions were excellent and although I do not think I am in the league that have to give 'charity' dances I generally end up dancing with several people who I don't know or are new at most evenings - mainly because I hate to sit out at all and all dances are better than no dances.
    I think its a shame that this thread has gone off course and people who aren't supportive of all inclusive dancing (we were all beginners once) couldn't just refrain from posting.

    I like the luvvie duvvie threads - they make me smile and its nice to have some positivity for a change.

    Hope to stalk some of you better dancers on the dance floor soon.

    Rachel
    x

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  5. #124
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Batgirl View Post
    I have kept away from this thread as I'm not interested in the nastiness and pettiness that is sometimes demonstrated on the forum.
    I, like Moondancer, am in the no mans land after beginner and before the next step - its hard to get genuine feedback on your dancing and I too search out the best leads.
    I am not above 'queueing' for a dance with a favourite and understand that if I wait to be asked I may as well stay home.
    I think that DTS's intentions were excellent and although I do not think I am in the league that have to give 'charity' dances I generally end up dancing with several people who I don't know or are new at most evenings - mainly because I hate to sit out at all and all dances are better than no dances.
    I think its a shame that this thread has gone off course and people who aren't supportive of all inclusive dancing (we were all beginners once) couldn't just refrain from posting.

    I like the luvvie duvvie threads - they make me smile and its nice to have some positivity for a change.

    Hope to stalk some of you better dancers on the dance floor soon.

    Rachel
    x

    Im a little confused Rachel. Show me where the nastiness is on this thread. People have expressed their honest opinions about who they want to dance with and why. Just because people do not want to take the pledge does not make them nasty surely.....

    People have a right to choose who they dance with and when. Just because they decide not to take DTS;s intentionally nice pledge does not make them nasty people surely......

    Read the posts and show me... where is it nasty?>>

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  7. #125
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Batgirl View Post
    I think that DTS's intentions were excellent...


    I think its a shame that this thread has gone off course and people who aren't supportive of all inclusive dancing (we were all beginners once) couldn't just refrain from posting.
    Why people shouldn't join the pledge is pretty much on topic (it might be off course but this is as discussion forum).

    I doubt a single person who has posted to this thread isn't supportive of inclusive dancing (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

    The disagreement is how best to achieve that, and the relative importance compared to other good things.

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  9. #126
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    For leaders the benefits of dancing with an out of league follower are so much less (or at least perceived to be so less), so it isn't so worth dancing with someone who doesn't want to dance with you.
    Would be better without the omission of so.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I completely disagree with this statement
    ...I always try to dance with people better than myself
    I know for a fact that when i do my dancing improves dramatically
    When i returned from breeze having danced with the likes of Lory, Drathzel, Twirley bird etc (sorry if i have missed anyone) my regular partners all noticed an improvement in my leads and the quality if my dancing no new moves needed just technique
    Did they not want to dance with you then ?

    You don't find it isn't just a certain subset (mostly the better dancers) who think that, with the others thinking .

  10. #127
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Would be better without the omission of so..
    it doesnt matter how you wrap up your statement
    my disagreement is that you feel it doesnt benefit leads by dancing with better dancers
    IMHO no matter how good a dancer you are as a lead or a follow you will always improve by dancing with people who are better dancers than you

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    it doesnt matter how you wrap up your statement
    my disagreement is that you feel it doesnt benefit leads by dancing with better dancers
    IMHO no matter how good a dancer you are as a lead or a follow you will always improve by dancing with people who are better dancers than you
    I disagree with this statement in two aspects - first that you will always improve by dancing with better dancers. You won't. You get back as much as you put in. If you want to learn from dancing with better dancers, then you will. If you just want to appear to be a better dancer, then dance with someone that makes you look good. There are times that this is all I look for in a dance: to show off, be extravagant, flamboyant and have someone on my arm that makes me look fantastic Can't say I learn much from dances like that, but they are damn good fun
    The second aspect I disagree with is that it's not only better dancers that you can improve from. I've been taught by the best and learned from the worst. A lot of MJ dancing is improvisation, and the best way to learn that is learning how to make the most of times when something goes wrong, and that normally happens when dancing with poorer dancers.

    You can always improve your dancing by dancing with people. In fact it doesn't even have to be with people. If you want to improve your dancing, then dance.

    Dancing with better leads will improve your ability to pick up subtle things, improvise and to stop second-guessing and actually follow. Dancing with poorer leads will improve your ability to comprehend different 'dialects' of the same move. Dancing with better followers will let you improve try things and 'play' more with the music. Dancing with poorer followers will improve your ability to lead.
    ... of course that only works if you are trying to improve yourself.

  12. #129
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    You can always improve your dancing by dancing with people. In fact it doesn't even have to be with people. If you want to improve your dancing, then dance.

    Dancing with better leads will improve your ability to pick up subtle things, improvise and to stop second-guessing and actually follow. Dancing with poorer leads will improve your ability to comprehend different 'dialects' of the same move. Dancing with better followers will let you improve try things and 'play' more with the music. Dancing with poorer followers will improve your ability to lead.
    ... of course that only works if you are trying to improve yourself.
    Of course i completely agree with this entire statement
    My comment was to Frodo who said "For leaders the benefits of dancing with an out of league follower are so much less"
    Which imho is completely wrong
    As you say you can learn from any dance so long as you want to learn

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Batgirl View Post
    I have kept away from this thread as I'm not interested in the nastiness and pettiness that is sometimes demonstrated on the forum.
    I don't think there's been much nastiness or pettiness on this thread, though any that exists has been dished out by people on both sides of the argument, IMO.
    I think that DTS's intentions were excellent ......
    I think DTS was perfectly well-meaning also, but discussion and disagreement about the idea of a pledge is not really surprising.
    I think its a shame that this thread has gone off course and people who aren't supportive of all inclusive dancing (we were all beginners once) couldn't just refrain from posting.
    I have to say, again, I am supportive of inclusive dancing but I am not supportive of a pledge. There is a difference.
    What I found difficult about the suggestion that I should make a pledge is that I am being told what to do when I have been pretty much doing it all along. Also I, would like to retain my right to refuse even if I only use it (like DTS) 0.0000001% of the time, and don't wish to be hypocritical about it.

    I like the luvvie duvvie threads - they make me smile and its nice to have some positivity for a change.
    They always make me feel slightly queasy - and for that reason I don't look at them unless there's something in them that captures my interest, as on this occasion. I don't really look to a discussion forum for positivity, although it's always nice to see courtesy and good manners, but I do expect to find reasoned and wide-ranging discussion.
    Which we've had.

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  15. #131
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    AwwÖI wish all the good leads thought that, but I donít think they doÖI canít help knowing that a lot of the people I really want to dance with are so much better than me, so asking them is probably the only way Iíll get a dance. I donít think I have inflicted pain on anyone yet, but I canít kid myself that I can give a lead as good a dance as a more experienced follow can.

    To be honest, I donít have much idea of where I would assess my own dancing. Iím in that big cloudy area of Ďnot beginners any moreí but there are a lot of leagues within that smog. Iíve never seen myself jiving, and I donít really get a lot of feedback, so how would I know how far Iíve got to go to break into the blue sky leagues?
    Quote Originally Posted by Batgirl View Post
    I, like Moondancer, am in the no mans land after beginner and before the next step - its hard to get genuine feedback on your dancing and I too search out the best leads.
    Two things. Firstly, you have absolutely no idea what any other dancer actually thinks of your dancing or how they rate themselves. Even if you ask them, you cannot be sure if they are telling you the truth or not. So stop trying to second guess what they actually think Itíll help your confidence if you stop assuming that everyone else thinks that they are better dancers than you. And Iíve got a personal illustration:

    Iím an average sort of dancer Ė not bad, but not brilliant. There is a chap whom I almost always ask to dance at one of the venues I go to as heís a favourite lead of mine, but Iíve been getting a bit anxious about the fact that he never asks me, although he is always friendly when we dance in class, chats away, accepts my invitations to dance enthusiastically, and appears to enjoy the dances we have. My paranoia that he didnít actually like dancing with me at all started to set in, and I regard him as one of the better dancers at that venue. However, recently, heís started to apologise to me after each dance, saying that he doesnít know enough moves and isnít a good enough dancer! But he knows plenty, has great musicality and we always have fun dances. It suddenly clicked that he might think that I was a much better dancer than him, and that was why he wasnít asking me At present, I havenít confirmed this, but if he does it again, Iím going to investigate furtherÖ

    Second thing is to ask for feedback on your dancing to help you improve. When I first joined this forum, I saw it suggested that you find a dancer you admire, and ask them for one thing you could do to improve your dancing (havenít seen this suggested for a while though). Just make it one thing, as otherwise they could feel uncomfortable and you wonít take up too much of their time. Iíve done this a couple of times, and both times have got really good advice, improved my dancing and I think the people I asked were actually rather flattered. The last time the lead didnít just give me one thing, but about three and spent an entire track teaching me - my own mini private lesson with one of the best dancers around! Even better, when I danced with him some weeks later, he actually commented on the fact that Iíd been working on my frame and had improved

    I am sure that youíve both got access to some excellent dancers whose egoís you could polish by asking them for some feedback

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I disagree with this statement in two aspects - first that you will always improve by dancing with better dancers. You won't. You get back as much as you put in. If you want to learn from dancing with better dancers, then you will. If you just want to appear to be a better dancer, then dance with someone that makes you look good. There are times that this is all I look for in a dance: to show off, be extravagant, flamboyant and have someone on my arm that makes me look fantastic Can't say I learn much from dances like that, but they are damn good fun
    The second aspect I disagree with is that it's not only better dancers that you can improve from. I've been taught by the best and learned from the worst. A lot of MJ dancing is improvisation, and the best way to learn that is learning how to make the most of times when something goes wrong, and that normally happens when dancing with poorer dancers.

    You can always improve your dancing by dancing with people. In fact it doesn't even have to be with people. If you want to improve your dancing, then dance.
    I agree with your points about finding an opportunity to learn from all types of dancers. However, I don't just dance for education but also for the pleasure of dancing - and a more skilled leader usually feels better to dance with, as I imagine a skilled follower does.
    If I'm dancing to learn or be sociable then any partner will do, but if I want the pleasure of a skilful dance then the range of partners I can get that from is much more limited.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    It suddenly clicked that he might think that I was a much better dancer than him, and that was why he wasnít asking me
    Classic

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Classic

    What you implying Mr DB?!

    Note that I said "think" - not that I am a much better dancer. Tis all about perceptions...

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    What you implying Mr DB?!
    Errr, nothing - just laughing along with you at the mutual misunderstanding.

    Why?

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Errr, nothing - just laughing along with you at the mutual misunderstanding.

    Why?
    Just checking!

  22. #137
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Two things. Firstly, you have absolutely no idea what any other dancer actually thinks of your dancing or how they rate themselves. Even if you ask them, you cannot be sure if they are telling you the truth or not. So stop trying to second guess what they actually think Itíll help your confidence if you stop assuming that everyone else thinks that they are better dancers than you. And Iíve got a personal illustration:


    Snip


    I am sure that youíve both got access to some excellent dancers whose egoís you could polish by asking them for some feedback
    You know what twirley that was an extremely good post
    rep on its way

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    You know what twirley that was an extremely good post
    rep on its way

    Yes, it was.

    ...I do ask for feedback from a few selected dancers, as was recommended by forumites some time ago, but I still don't have any idea what my dancing is like! I've got a pretty good idea of what my linedancing looks like, but I've never seen myself couple dancing - could be just as well at this stage or I might never dance again!

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I still don't have any idea what my dancing is like! I've got a pretty good idea of what my linedancing looks like, but I've never seen myself couple dancing - could be just as well at this stage or I might never dance again!
    Funny that... i wouldn't want to see myself dancing.. last time i watched myself on the dreaded you tube video, i went on an immediate diet and lost a load of weight but even now, i still would not want to watch myself for fear it would put me off for ever.

    I do love to watch other people though

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    Re: Join me in a pledge!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    AwwÖI wish all the good leads thought that, but I donít think they doÖI canít help knowing that a lot of the people I really want to dance with are so much better than me, so asking them is probably the only way Iíll get a dance. I donít think I have inflicted pain on anyone yet, but I canít kid myself that I can give a lead as good a dance as a more experienced follow can.

    To be honest, I donít have much idea of where I would assess my own dancing. Iím in that big cloudy area of Ďnot beginners any moreí but there are a lot of leagues within that smog. Iíve never seen myself jiving, and I donít really get a lot of feedback, so how would I know how far Iíve got to go to break into the blue sky leagues?
    I have been dancing for eight years whether I am any good is for others to comment on.
    I like most other dancers like to ask the better dancers for a dance, you can guarantee that for as many fab dances I will have I will have an equal amount where I come off thinking it just didn't work. This can be for a number of reasons, we don't connect, there sense of rythm doesn't work for me, does this mean I am dancing out of time, I haven't a clue. Our styles don't compliment eachother.

    All I can say is don't knock yourself ,as a young lady once said to me, "nobody has died, its just a dance, get over it". Never a truer word said.

    If you really want feed back, go and speak with a teacher, maybe have a private and get somebody to take some film of you dancing when you least expect it. If you know your on film you wont dance naturally.

    Lastly, don't stop asking people for dances.

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