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Thread: Leading Help

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    Leading Help

    Help a tripe leader in desperate need.

    These points tend to only to a few followers I dance with but I'm a paranoid git at times. Oh and I don't like wrestling people.

    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?

    2) How do you stop a follower walking down your right hand side when stepping forward, or walking effective around you, however much you step off the slot and lead them directly forward?

    Answers on a postcard please.

    (I may think of more things at a later date)

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    Re: Leading Help

    Have you tried talking to them mate, be subtle like...STAND STILL YOU OLD BADGER.

    Or other usefull and girly friendly phrases.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Simple answer to this. You can't.

    Followers will do whatever they want to do whether the move is well lead or not.

    My sugestion is if you are leading a woman in to a specific move and she does not do as you expect, turn it in to a different move.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Two things that might help:

    1. Just keep chaining regular moves together, so that their anticipation actually matches something you're trying to do. Don't give them any free time.

    2. Step to your own left when you lead them forward so you're not in their way.

    Now, that said - point 1 sucks in my opinion, and isn't something I'd consider to be indicitive of good dancing. If that's all your follower expects and she's oblivious to anything else you're doing it may be the path of least resistance though. Point 2 may or may not make a difference. It depends on whether it's your problem or hers (and without seeing you dance I couldn't say one way or the other sorry ).

    If these issues are because of something your follower is doing, which sounds like the case here since it's only a couple of them, then there really isn't anything you can do other than accomadate them, talk to them or get somebody else (i.e. a teacher) to do your dirty work for you

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?
    Learn Tango - we're experts at getting people to stop moving

    In the shorter term, some obvious possibilities are:
    - Use close hold; I've yet to meet a follower who can walk forwards when in hold. Similarly, equivalent holds in Modern Jive are Baskets and suchlike - again, you have much more control with more connection points/
    - Lead with conviction. Difficult to learn, but if you learn and communicate your lead with total confidence (not force), you'll find your follower does what you intend her to do.

    What you shouldn't do is turn it into a wrestling match, or try to use force.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    2. Step to your own left when you lead them forward so you're not in their way.
    I do but it makes no difference when they self conciously move to the left.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?
    Two options:
    a) accommodate them into your own lead: Move yourself. Position your self and move to maintain the same distance as if they were stationary. Basically this means following your partner - if they always take a step back after a move, then step in after a move.
    b) use the force: not a good idea unless you have something to contrast with - if the rest of your leading is smooth and gentle, then you put up a 'barrier' beyond which your hand/arm will not be moved. Your partner should feel an increase in pressure before the hold slips and they float away (or they crash into you). DO NOT hold on or grip your partner when trying to 'wrestle' with them - just be confident and secure about your own hand position and frame, and be resolute about it's position relative to your own body.

    2) How do you stop a follower walking down your right hand side when stepping forward, or walking effective around you, however much you step off the slot and lead them directly forward?
    Don't open up to them; keep your shoulders and hips facing the same direction as you "step off the slot" and into their path. (make sure that it is into their path - don't be afraid of a little chest to chest contact ) Keep your lead hand more to the left when leading forwards: don't lead them "forward" - lead them slightly left.

    If that fails, keep facing the same direction and pretend that it was an intended move: a "walk-around".
    You can even use this to your advantage; keep hold of a hand as they walk round and they come into a nice blusey basket; let them walk half-way and turn 180ยบ to face so it looks like you're in control; let them come round to your other side, then step back/to the left and collect;...

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?
    Two options:
    a) accommodate them into your own lead: Move yourself. Position your self and move to maintain the same distance as if they were stationary. Basically this means following your partner - if they always take a step back after a move, then step in after a move.
    b) use the force: not a good idea unless you have something to contrast with - if the rest of your leading is smooth and gentle, then you put up a 'barrier' beyond which your hand/arm will not be moved. Your partner should feel an increase in pressure before the hold slips and they float away (or they crash into you). DO NOT hold on or grip your partner when trying to 'wrestle' with them - just be confident and secure about your own hand position and frame, and be resolute about it's position relative to your own body.

    2) How do you stop a follower walking down your right hand side when stepping forward, or walking effective around you, however much you step off the slot and lead them directly forward?
    Don't open up to them; keep your shoulders and hips facing the same direction as you "step off the slot" and into their path. (make sure that it is into their path - don't be afraid of a little chest to chest contact ) Keep your lead hand more to the left when leading forwards: don't lead them "forward" - lead them slightly left.

    If that fails, keep facing the same direction and pretend that it was an intended move: a "walk-around".
    You can even use this to your advantage; keep hold of a hand as they walk round and they come into a nice blusey basket; let them walk half-way and turn 180ยบ to face so it looks like you're in control; let them come round to your other side, then step back/to the left and collect;...

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Help a tripe leader in desperate need.

    These points tend to only to a few followers I dance with but I'm a paranoid git at times. Oh and I don't like wrestling people.

    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?

    2) How do you stop a follower walking down your right hand side when stepping forward, or walking effective around you, however much you step off the slot and lead them directly forward?

    Answers on a postcard please.

    (I may think of more things at a later date)
    Fairly easy really, go with thier flow and adapt the move, or chose other people to dance with

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    Registered User Zebra Woman's Avatar
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    Re: Leading Help

    Choose carefully, ask a follower if they would spare a dance to help you improve your lead. Make sure it's not her favourite song to dance to!

    Find a space for yourselves on the floor where you can see the floor boards and ask if you can practice some simple moves that keep both of you within say 3 or 4 floorboards. Take responsibilty for everything, smile, and be very grateful for her help. If she persistently wanders out of the strip, gently ask her to aim her travelling up and down the slot (to help you). She will either never dance with you again, or remember what you like and try and do her best not to dance around you in future.

    Stopping a woman from moving is much harder, and may need a friendly remark like 'I really want to get you to stay still - but I'm not sure how to lead it. Is there anything I could do here that would make you stop moving?' Keep repeating the same move over and over until she moves less and less. Read the threads on here about connection, resistance, compression, points of contact, try things out.....

    I have been on the receiving end of both of these approaches and was very pleased to 'help the lead' and improve myself, and I'm still best of friends with them. That kind of cooperation, once started can go on forever, which is a great thing for everyone's dancing and friendships too.

    Oh how soppy this has become!

    sorry...

    ZW

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    Re: Leading Help

    [quote=Steven666;507944]Help a tripe leader in desperate need.

    These points tend to only to a few followers I dance with but I'm a paranoid git at times. Oh and I don't like wrestling people.

    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?

    [quote]
    The lead for the follower to stop works best with your left hand, as they are stepping back coming out of anything, push your left hand down low and hold it there rigid, a follower that likes a bit of time and space to play will, and those that don't will look like a rabbit caught in the headlights and you know not to do it again with them.

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    Re: Leading Help

    There are limits to what you can do. If a follow insists on trying to figure out what you're leading, then do the move on their own, you're in trouble. There are things a leader can do to still dance well, but I see a lot of this as little more than damage limitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?
    Tighten the frame. Keep your arms in close and a strong frame. This will maintain your left hand not far from your body. If your follow steps back, they'll need to stretch their arm out. It gets a bit messy and uncomfortable for them: and they'll soon know that something's wrong.

    One of my pet hates is when a follow does not go where they're lead. The most common cause of this is travelling through a turn (instead of turning either on the spot or on the line of dance, they are unbalanced in their turn and step off the line/spot). This is most common when you start a simple return directly in front; you should end that return directly in front of one another, directly facing. I find the majority of follows achieve this in the class and have less success in freestyle. I would blame myself (the lead can quite easily take the follow off balance), except that I have no trouble with people that I know have excellent technique.

    I usually compensate for this with a second return to line us up with one another or using far more travelling returns and shifting the line of dance to wherever they happen to end up. Some people seem to handle this far better than I do, but I have no idea how they do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    2) How do you stop a follower walking down your right hand side when stepping forward, or walking effective around you, however much you step off the slot and lead them directly forward?
    One thing I've been taught recently (by a very good teacher) is to initiate every movement with your body, not with your arms. To get a follower to step forward, you start by moving back (sometimes a small step, often just shifting your weight to your back foot is enough). Once they're moving, you soften the tension and get out of their way. This tends to be far more effective, because follows are far more likely to follow the initial movement of your body.

    When you do step aside, again maintaining frame is important and make sure you don't apply any force on their hand that would move them towards you. Also make sure you completely clear their line; if you've moved that far, then they would have to go a long way to get around you. If you've already got them moving forward, then they have no chance of getting on your wrong side.

    Again, it's not perfect (analogously: "under tightly controlled experimental conditions the average human subject will do whatever they damn well please"). But you can control the damage.

    (And before anyone attacks me for blaming the follow: I can mess up just as badly as a lead, but that wasn't the question).

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    [The lead for the follower to stop works best with your left hand, as they are stepping back coming out of anything, push your left hand down low and hold it there rigid, a follower that likes a bit of time and space to play will, and those that don't will look like a rabbit caught in the headlights and you know not to do it again with them.
    This particular technique is not a favourite for many of us who do like to play but when we want to play as part of the dance. Most of us are not grateful for an 8 beat performance slot with a guy watching us - it can make the lead appear sleazy (been waiting to use that one ) I like this technique only as part of a dramatic break where we both stop for a beat or two.

    If you want me to stop, these things might help:
    • make it musical, match it to the music - break
    • use your body as a block so we have to do something slower to get round each other
    • demonstrate the tempo at which you want us to move (I am such a copy cat)


    On the other hand I might just hijack you anyway and interpret the music the way I feel like

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post

    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?
    Maybe try playing with the tension and connection between you and the follow. Play about with both of these things and watch what happens and then adapt it to suit what it is you want to lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    2) How do you stop a follower walking down your right hand side when stepping forward, or walking effective around you, however much you step off the slot and lead them directly forward?
    Maybe try playing with body leads rather than just leading with your hands. Have you ever had any WCS lessons? This could really help you. I love body leads. They are so precise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Simple answer to this. You can't.

    Followers will do whatever they want to do whether the move is well lead or not.
    Sorry Lee I so don't agree with this.

    We haven't danced for a very long time have we? Next time we are at the same weekender please make sure you grab me. I have learnt to pretty much do what I am told now.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Tighten the frame. Keep your arms in close and a strong frame. This will maintain your left hand not far from your body. If your follow steps back, they'll need to stretch their arm out. It gets a bit messy and uncomfortable for them: and they'll soon know that something's wrong.
    Yes; they will probably notice something is wrong; that you're not leading them very well - the connection between you is constantly changing in intensity. You're not doing anything wrong and it's probably good advice to prevent injury to yourself, but I doubt that it will do anything for the follower.

    If you do tighten up the frame, then what is happening when the follower is stepping back? Why is it "messy and uncomfortable"? Why are you as a lead deliberately making it this way? If it is to prevent injury to yourself, then there is no problem - but you can still limit the mess and discomfort inflicted on the follower by actually using the frame: become lighter on your feet and move where the follower is pulling/pushing you. {This is not easy -I only have limited success... but then again, I can't follow }

    {travelling turns} I would blame myself (the lead can quite easily take the follow off balance), except that I have no trouble with people that I know have excellent technique.
    Ever considered that it is their technique is compensating for your lead? In a class situation the follower knows that they should be in the same orientation/place so they make sure that they end up there, no matter the lead.
    I know that turns can be led to remove travelling because I do it. Several things have to be in place for it to work, but primarily you will find that it is the momentum from the previous move/movement you have to counter before you lead the turn.
    (But it's a lot of work and I'm lazy - I tend to simply move to keep the follower in the same relative place to me )

    One thing I've been taught recently (by a very good teacher) is to initiate every movement with your body, not with your arms.
    Good advice for any leading: This is using your frame to actually lead through rather than simply engaging it as a defensive mechanism. It sounds a simple premis, but takes a lifetime to do properly - just ask tango peeps
    (I've seen Franck and Amir specifically teach this in the MJ context - Specifically I would recommended Franck's "focus" workshop series. I've seen others teach it in context of tango.)

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Sorry Lee I so don't agree with this.

    We haven't danced for a very long time have we? Next time we are at the same weekender please make sure you grab me. I have learnt to pretty much do what I am told now.

    A follow will only follow in to a basket because they have done that move plenty of times and know that that is what they are expected to do. They don't have to do it.

    I always tell people that the dance is just man suggested, not man lead as the leads can not make the follow do something they don't want to do.

    I a follow is not used to going down a slot then they will not walk down a slot if they want to dance rotational. No matter how good a lead is, it is up to the follow to interpret what the lead wants.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Good advice for any leading: This is using your frame to actually lead through rather than simply engaging it as a defensive mechanism. It sounds a simple premis, but takes a lifetime to do properly - just ask tango peeps
    An exaggeration. Ten years to learn to walk, that's no time at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    (I've seen Franck and Amir specifically teach this in the MJ context - Specifically I would recommended Franck's "focus" workshop series. I've seen others teach it in context of tango.)
    Agree - I think Franck's better for putting this into into a purely-MJ context, although they're both good of course.

    I don't think it's worth learning WCS (or Tango in fact) simply to learn to body-lead; but, certainly, it's one way of doing it. A better route is to find a good MJ teacher, and get some private lessons in this technique. Of course, "finding a good MJ teacher" may take a while in some parts of the country...

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Simple answer to this. You can't.
    Complex answer: you can't force it.

    But you can 99.99%-irresistably lead it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Followers will do whatever they want to do whether the move is well lead or not.
    A good lead is always invitational, so yes, technically, a follower can choose not to follow even a very good, very clear lead.

    But then, if they do that, they're stopping being a follower - they're just someone who's dancing and who happens to be holding your hand.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    But then, if they do that, they're stopping being a follower - they're just someone who's dancing and who happens to be holding your hand.
    or just a follower who has not got the hang of it yet.

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    Re: Leading Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    or just a follower who has not got the hang of it yet.
    No - a beginner can always be led, a competent lead will compensate for that. We're not talking about "I don't know what to do" types here.

    It's when a follower consciously decides to not follow, despite a very clear lead, that there's a problem. I had that a year or so ago, I was trying to lead a Manhattan (Mambo / forward-and-back) step on a lady, and she simply refused to step back on her right foot.

    I was very by this - I assumed it was my lead going wrong - but after a while she informed me that she never went back on her right. In other words, she knew what I was leading, but she just didn't want to do it.

    In that situation, there's almost nothing a leader can do, because the leader is doing nothing wrong.

    Now, the original question is:
    1) How do you get a follower to stand still when they are insistant on stepping/walking forward, or back, on every step, whether led to or not?
    If the follower is genuinely insistent on this, then yes, you can't do anything. No-one can. So you either go with the flow or you dance with someone else.

    But very very few followers are truly that insistent - as I said, I've only encountered one in the past couple of years. In all other cases, followers can be led.

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