Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
I've enjoyed your debate so far very much (though I admit to not reading every word of it!).
Hi Graham

I'm glad that you find the topic interesting, and worthy of consideration. The more that I'm looking into the subject, the deeper, a seemingly simple subject, it seems to be. And I, for one, find it increasingly alarming. I hope that I'm not being duped, but don't rule it out.

Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
I too have been shocked by reports of the level of bonuses paid to bank executives (Leyman brother reportedly having paid 31Bn $ out in the last few years, the same amount of mony as they were said to have been drawn into liquidation by according to Private Eye).

Good old Private Eye!!! Where all of the real news seems to be!!
Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
Even so recent declarations by government minister or others about the need for new banking regulations or controls on bonuses seemed just as incongruous to me. Doesn't "free enterprise" mean banks or other employers must decide remuneration levels for themselves?[/FONT]
I fully agree. Whatever opinion I have on these quite obscene (at times) bonuses, this practice is simply a symptom of an underlying issue (or problem as I would say). I feel that all this short term gain will inevitably end, at some indeterminate time in the future, with long term loss .... or collapse. Time will be the ultimate test.

"Always prefer a loss to a dishonest gain.The one hurts for the moment, the other for all time" - Chilon
Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
Quote:
"It is not possible to increase basic economic rights at will simply by responding to increased demands, because economic growth is determined by ecological limits. The human struggle for survival and world domination cannot be carried out at the expense of nature, since in that case "ecological death" would anyway prepare the way for the end of human life altogether."
Again, a wonderful insight; however, this really only leads to this quoted conclusion when most people are deeply scripted in what can be termed as the scarcity mentality. Again, this underlying issue creates the symptom.
Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
Trying to link all this to the credit crunch now it seems to me government's do try to boost business confidence, with varying degree's of success. For example Norman Lamont was said to cause drops in confidence in the Pound whenever he appeared on TV talking about the economy whilst Ken Clarke could steady markets perhaps. Then there has been New Labour and declarations that they had ended "boom and bust" which everyone feels will hang around their necks like an albatross at the next election - however, it isn't entirely certain that people will choose to blame them or hold them solely responsible.
The perils of a chaotic system. It's a wonder (and quite likely a credit, though I begrudge it, to how the stock market works) that there isn't more violent market turbulence triggered by well meaning politics.
Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
Personally I don't feel the need for endless choice of goods in our shops (but would my sense of taste or fashion be satisfied with only a limited choice I wonder). Still, people wastefully choosing to discard items they are fed up with, like those who rip out their kitchen after a couple of years or whatever, I am instinctively against (though how you can legislate for this behaviour I don't know).
I wonder if this lies at the heart of the underlying issues. Ill-considered consumerism with little or no regard to available resources can, surely, do our green planet no favours.
Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
Apologies if this contribution is a bit disjointed but to sum up now all any of us can say about the current crisis, or the worse we can say has to be tempered by considerations as to what might have happened if our governments or banks hadn't tried to stimulate demand. That said, a BBC article recently looked at economic conditions in France or the use of credit in France and pointed out that personal debt there is half UK levels - which certainly sounds more sustainable doesn't it.
I'm sure that the government is doing the best it can given the current situation and underlying circumstances. However, I wonder if any long term sustainable stability is realistically achievable without addressing underlying issues.