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Thread: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    With under a week to go before the Champs, I’m entering the obligatory ‘blind panic’ phase. Having come to terms with my limitations at competitive dancing many years ago, my rash agreement to partner a wonderful female dancer who couldn’t find a partner is coming back to haunt me. Whats making me more unsettled were the rules I recently received.

    One phrase in particular give some cause for concern:

    “ The judges will be looking for style/musical interpretation as well as number/difficulty of moves”


    I’ve interpreted this as moves get equal marks as being able to dance to the music. On the face of it, this sounds like a step back to the dark ages when competitions were dominated by ‘move merchants’, rather than those who could dance. Given my own limitations in number of moves, can someone clarify?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    One phrase in particular give some cause for concern:

    “ The judges will be looking for style/musical interpretation as well as number/difficulty of moves”


    I’ve interpreted this as moves get equal marks as being able to dance to the music. On the face of it, this sounds like a step back to the dark ages when competitions were dominated by ‘move merchants’, rather than those who could dance. Given my own limitations in number of moves, can someone clarify?
    Well, I am nothing to do with the judging of this (or any) comp but I would read this as awareness raising for dancers to the effect that it's not just the number/difficulty of moves that will be the basis of the scoring but that style and musicality will also enter the equation (i.e opposite to how you are reading it) The context for the phrase may prove me wrong but that's how I'd see it.

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    drathzel (13th-October-2008)

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Well, I am nothing to do with the judging of this (or any) comp but I would read this as awareness raising for dancers to the effect that it's not just the number/difficulty of moves that will be the basis of the scoring but that style and musicality will also enter the equation (i.e opposite to how you are reading it) The context for the phrase may prove me wrong but that's how I'd see it.
    You cup is half full Gus, not half empty.

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    You cup is half full Gus, not half empty.
    No, I'm afraid Gus's cup is actually half empty.

    This saying has always bugged me as the anwer is so obvious. If you have taken an empty cup and filled it to half way it is half full. If you have taken a full cup and emptied it to half way it is half empty.

    With this in mind, as Gus has probably forgotten more than half the moves he's ever known his cup is probably more than half empty.

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    under par (14th-October-2008)

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Speaking as an Accountant - the Cup is surely twice as big as it needs to be!

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    With this in mind, as Gus has probably forgotten more than half the moves he's ever known his cup is probably more than half empty.
    Time to send him some Aricept(tm), maybe...?

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Time to send him some Aricept(tm), maybe...?
    Actually, I think Gus is quite proud of how much he's forgotten. Can you imagine his pride levels when he forgets how to dance altogether?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    With this in mind, as Gus has probably forgotten more than half the moves he's ever known his cup is probably more than half empty.
    As with most qualified Teachers ... somewhere a;ong the line I've been taught to teach about 550 standard moves ... add in the 200+ or so I must have seen on other courses and at weekenders ... probably learnt about 700-800 'moves' .... bit of a shame when. like a fair few of my mates, can only remeber 20 or so when I have to

    ANYWAY ... that matters not! The real question is:

    Will moves count as much as being able to dance?

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I’ve interpreted this as moves get equal marks as being able to dance to the music. On the face of it, this sounds like a step back to the dark ages when competitions were dominated by ‘move merchants’, rather than those who could dance.
    Modern Jive competitions are not musicality competitions. Neither are WCS comps, or ballroom comps. They all judge on a range of criteria.

    For MJ there are a lot of individual criteria you could consider - musical interpretation, characterisation, variation of content, difficulty, execution, individual technique, partner technique, connection, timing, presentation, performance, teamwork, style etc.



    For simplicity these are usually grouped into 3 or 4 criteria that the judges look for. Typically these are:
    • Musicality
    • Content & execution
    • Style & Technique
    • Presentation
    Depending on how the scoring is done, the judges might award marks for each criteria, or just be told to consider each of these criteria and give an overall mark or place.



    It is natural that couples will have their own strengths and weaknesses, but there does seem to be a particular problem with musicality vs content. Very few couples seem to be able to combine the two. Some of the most noticable aspects are:
    • A complete separation of the two. ie couples doing a move or a sequence without any regard to the music, and then doing some individual musicality stuff without doing any moves.
    • Couples who have a small number of 'flash' moves, and do all of them to every track, irrespective of what the music is like.
    You also still get the extremes - couples concentrating so much on the music that they hardly do any moves, and others for whom the music is irrelevant.

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    drathzel (13th-October-2008), Gus (13th-October-2008), John S (14th-October-2008), under par (14th-October-2008)

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Having just marked Britrock I'd say that another thing that you really can't control is variation of judges. Different judges are looking for different things. This means that judges will not mark consistently. I'd say that this is a good thing as MJ is not a consistent dance and has an "anything goes" aspect to it.

    I believe that this "anything goes" may not be the case for a Ceroc competition. Because Ceroc is not a dance but a brand of dance a Ceroc competition must be looking for dancers who most closely approximate to the brand identity. If it is not, why call it a "Ceroc" competition. Ceroc teach in a particular way and I believe that a significant part of the marking should be related to how close a couple come to dancing in the way that Ceroc have taught. Of course this may not be the case - but to argue that it should not be, especially if you are an employee of Ceroc, is to argue that the competition should not be a "Ceroc Champs" but a "MJ Champs".

    Consider the difference between a "Burger Cooking Competition" and a "Big Mac(tm) Cooking Competition". This is the difference between a "Modern Jive Competition" and a "Ceroc Champs". Is there room for creativity when producing a "Big Mac(tm)"? I think not. The winner would have to be the one who gets the formula exactly right according to the manual.

    Am I criticising Ceroc? Not this time (I still think the whole Southport thing stinks btw ). I think that a dance competition where each competitor knows exactly what the ideal should be is a great way to go. It's not the only way but is is a worthy route to take.

    What do I think Gus should do? Enjoy the day, drink too much, make a fool of himself and get laid
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 14th-October-2008 at 01:45 AM.

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    As with most qualified Teachers ...
    I didn't know Gus had qualified. Which dance organisation is that with?

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    The real question is:

    Will moves count as much as being able to dance?
    I hope so, being musical with no moves makes for very boring watching.

    In the same way "just doing moves" with no musical understanding makes you go eeek

    Well that is the hard line facts...

    So you need a ballance, and it seems (from what you say) you are "off ballance" when it comes to comps... time to look back at all those moves you thought were cool in the past, and include them (while keeping your musicality).

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I didn't know Gus had qualified. Which dance organisation is that with?
    He's qualified for the old gits, hasn't he??

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I believe that this "anything goes" may not be the case for a Ceroc competition. Because Ceroc is not a dance but a brand of dance a Ceroc competition must be looking for dancers who most closely approximate to the brand identity. If it is not, why call it a "Ceroc" competition. Ceroc teach in a particular way and I believe that a significant part of the marking should be related to how close a couple come to dancing in the way that Ceroc have taught. Of course this may not be the case - but to argue that it should not be, especially if you are an employee of Ceroc, is to argue that the competition should not be a "Ceroc Champs" but a "MJ Champs".
    You're talking nonsense Andy.

    When I run start running MJ competitions, I will call them the "Ducasi Champs". I will not, however, expect people to dance the same way as I do. (Thank goodness!)
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Ummm. Yeah. How does a british rock dance anyhow??

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Andy has a point, as we do know Ceroc isn't the only organisation that teaches 'modern jive'. Clearly you still need "Ceroc" in there, so perhaps "The Ceroc Modern Jive Dance Championships"

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    You're talking nonsense Andy.

    When I run start running MJ competitions, I will call them the "Ducasi Champs". I will not, however, expect people to dance the same way as I do. (Thank goodness!)
    This weak argument against my point is where the nonsense has really started. I'm talking about Ceroc the brand of dance. There is no brand of dance called "Ducasi". But if there were I'd expect people who competed at the "Ducasi Champs" would have to show how good they were at dancing "Ducasi".

    Consider Mr Fox, who invented the Foxtrot. Would he let people dance a different dance at the "Foxtrot Champs"? I don't think so

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This weak argument against my point is where the nonsense has really started. I'm talking about Ceroc the brand of dance. There is no brand of dance called "Ducasi". But if there were I'd expect people who competed at the "Ducasi Champs" would have to show how good they were at dancing "Ducasi".
    It says it right there on their home page...
    Our stylish dance, sometimes referred to as 'Modern Jive', is a fusion of Salsa, Ballroom, Hip Hop, Tango and Jive.
    'Ceroc' is the name of a company. It is not a "brand of dance". There ain't no such thing.

    Oh, and this competition is called the "Ceroc Scotland Championships 2008".

    There certainly isn't a dance called "Ceroc Scotland".
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Consider Mr Fox, who invented the Foxtrot. Would he let people dance a different dance at the "Foxtrot Champs"? I don't think so
    I think the Blues Champs at Breeze should have been renamed the 'Foxfrot Champs' in honour of Ceroc's premier frotting DJ (and he minces more outrageously than Andy McG too )

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    Re: Ceroc Scotland Champs - Open Rules

    1/2 a week to go now... Good luck Gus.

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