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Thread: Dance Instructors

  1. #21
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    When I'm up on stage, I tell people what to do. When I'm dancing, I (try to) just help the girl enjoy the dance (unless she asks for help/feedback). Guys stopping to lecture mid-dance irritate me, because (I assume) they are making the girl not enjoy their evening.

  2. #22
    Registered User Villemo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    As a pretty new follower, I really hate it if a guy "nags" at me while we're dancing. "You're taking too big steps" or "you're bouncing" or "that's not how the moves go".
    If I do something wrong, fine - tell me. I want to learn! But please don't nag And yes, it is the new intermediates who usually do this.

    On the other hand, I love pushing the envelope (or dance shoe), and feel it's great if an experienced dancer shows me how to do new moves!
    I don't know how many times I have looked absolutly blank, and the fab lead has gone through it with me again
    Though dips and drops terrify me still, and I've gotten a few comments like "no reason to look THAT scared..."

  3. #23
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    I'm not sure I agree - most ladies I've danced with have put up with all sorts of cheekiness and some completely spontaneous moves. For that very small minority that look a bit like bunnies in the headlights I simply go back to dancing conventional moves. Sometimes I myself have been shocked into 'headlight bunny' syndrome (first time I danced with Trouble comes back to mind) and it had the same effect - back to beginner stuff.
    In an actual dance context I'd definitely agree with that.

    I neglected to say in the context of talking about dancing, mostly in the virtual world.

  4. #24
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But if someone is simply inexperienced or a weak dancer do not point that out to them - if you're such a fabulous dancer that you can instruct her you will also be good enough to give her a great dance without any instruction.
    This is true, and good advice for a one off, say a weekender situation.


    I might give a lady a fabulous dance in her eyes. I might also stop asking her after a while.

    Should you really avoid people rather than giving advice. I feel a bit guilty about sometimes using the avoid option.

    Generally the only people I'll give advice to is people I particularly care about dancing in future with.


    Personally I know I'd be a much better dancer if I got much more "you're doing it wrong type" feedback.

  5. #25
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Ive not noticed this really, though my wife said she got one of these guys in a lucky dip competition once. He didnt stop, he just shouted out what he was going to do next. Some names she'd never heard of. I think she shouted "JUST LEAD ME" at him.
    i like that!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    I rarely ever talk during a dance (only ever to say "how you doing" or something at the beginning) and wouldnt dream of discussing/teaching/learning something during the dance itself. Bizarre concept if you ask me.
    Yes we know what happens when you talk and dance

    love ya really!!

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    As a teacher, but speaking only for myself and not anyone else. I dont see a huge amount of it but when it does happen i make sure i place myself near the person so that i am in earshot.

    The result of this being that if the are doing it wrong and "teaching" it wrong in such a way thats going to hurt the woman physically or indeed confidence wise i will jump in and say "you ok there? can i help with anything" Most people take this opportunity to walk through it at that point i can say "actually Mr X if you tilt with this hand or pull back with that, the lady will find it easier to follow." At that point very few people will try and tell me i am wrong... altho some have tried

    If the person is genuinely trying to help and i can hear this is genuine i will stay back and not interrupt. If the woman looks happy enough that the man is just trying to help them with a move the just cannot get!!

    If its mr know it all i will ask them for the next dance and then watch the puzzled face when i see them trying to do the move with me and it not coming out with the desired affect. I will then make a point to say "try pulling back " or something of the sort while he is trying to lead the move again but make sure we dont stop dancing to go over. I'll be making a point in a nice way.

    I am lucky to say i havent seen a lot of these. I see more of men trying to force the lady into moves (ie beginners and side leans) and i have seen lots of women telling their partner off for getting it wrong. Which in my mind is the same thing!

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    This is true, and good advice for a one off, say a weekender situation.


    I might give a lady a fabulous dance in her eyes. I might also stop asking her after a while.

    Should you really avoid people rather than giving advice. I feel a bit guilty about sometimes using the avoid option.

    Generally the only people I'll give advice to is people I particularly care about dancing in future with.


    Personally I know I'd be a much better dancer if I got much more "you're doing it wrong type" feedback.
    I'm slightly saddened by this response. But only slightly. Speaking personally I love dancing and will dance with anyone and everyone. I'm selective when I'm teaching as I'm trying to dance with the beginners. At all other times I simply ask the next nearest dancer I've not danced with tonight.

    The only women I avoid are stalkers. And that's mostly because they try to stop me choosing my partners in the way I've said above.

    As I said, you should be able to have an enjoyable dance with any women of any level. At least that's my experience. If you feel you need to be able to instruct the woman on how she needs to dance to give you a good time it is unlikely that it's the woman who needs to change.

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Right, first off, here's the simple rule.

    Never, never, never give advice during a freestyle.

    It's off-putting, it's inappropriate, and it ruins the flow of a dance. There's an otherwise-lovely lady in Tango who does this with me, by occasionally pointing out some of the many flaws I have whilst leading - OK, fair enough, it does help me dance in a way, but it also messes up my enjoyment of the dance.

    So, just don't do it. If you really feel the need to give advice, simply talk to them afterwards.

    Secondly, there's the more complex issue of "advice during a class". I generally don't give advice, because that's not what I'm there for. In addition, as I usually auto-compensate for most follower problems during an average Ceroc class, it's not often clear to me what a follower is doing wrong.

    However, in some circumstances, it's appropriate to give advice. For example, I did an AT class last night, and one or two of the women were applying a lot of downards pressure with their left arms. As we were working for 5 minutes or more each time, I knew I'd have problems with an aching shoulder later, so I suggested to them how they could adjust their hold appropriately. Similarly, I spent some time in that class working as a follower (with a female lead), and I was dispensing non-stop advice then, simply because that was the ethos of that situation, and because I knew that's what my partner wanted.

  9. #29
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Right, first off, here's the simple rule.

    Never, never, never give advice during a freestyle.

    It's off-putting, it's inappropriate, and it ruins the flow of a dance. There's an otherwise-lovely lady in Tango who does this with me, by occasionally pointing out some of the many flaws I have whilst leading - OK, fair enough, it does help me dance in a way, but it also messes up my enjoyment of the dance.

    So, just don't do it. If you really feel the need to give advice, simply talk to them afterwards.

    Secondly, there's the more complex issue of "advice during a class". I generally don't give advice, because that's not what I'm there for. In addition, as I usually auto-compensate for most follower problems during an average Ceroc class, it's not often clear to me what a follower is doing wrong.

    However, in some circumstances, it's appropriate to give advice. For example, I did an AT class last night, and one or two of the women were applying a lot of downards pressure with their left arms. As we were working for 5 minutes or more each time, I knew I'd have problems with an aching shoulder later, so I suggested to them how they could adjust their hold appropriately. Similarly, I spent some time in that class working as a follower (with a female lead), and I was dispensing non-stop advice then, simply because that was the ethos of that situation, and because I knew that's what my partner wanted.
    Great advice

    I case people didn't see enought nevers. NEVER give advice during a freestyle - never!

    As far as the other bit goes. That's students discussing the lesson and trying to get the best out of it. That's fine during the lesson. I think it's OK during the freestyle after the lesson. But that's two students trying to work out what they were taught. That's very different from a self-elected teacher deciding to lecture a lady on the dance floor - did I mention how often you should do that?

    Here is a multiple choice quiz;

    Q1. At a freestyle how often should you teach a lady during a track?

    A. 1 tip.
    B. 2 tips.
    C. More than 2 tips.
    D. Give complete instruction for the whole track
    E. Never.

  10. #30
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    .....
    Should you really avoid people rather than giving advice. I feel a bit guilty about sometimes using the avoid option........
    .
    I also have a problem here. My general rule is dancing is 95% confidence and anything that damages a persons confidence is bad news. I think telling someone how to do a move unless specifically invited ranks right up there in damaging someones confidence.

    Having said that however I am also a bit concerned when I dance with someone who in my opinion and I am not a teacher, taxi or anything like that and a simple bit of advise may help alot. The things I have in mind have been mentioned alot on the forum, waving hands or arms, moving shoulders etc things that stop a leader from leading. Should I say anything? at present I don't.

    Having said that it does not worry generally if a follower cannot get a move I am trying to lead, it might be my lead it might be following skills, I just move on. What I have found however is that if you can change your hold (ballroom to open or vise verse, etc) but can still do the same move the follower then often gets the move, don't ask me why but it amazes me how often that works.

  11. #31
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Having said that it does not worry generally if a follower cannot get a move I am trying to lead, it might be my lead it might be following skills, I just move on. What I have found however is that if you can change your hold (ballroom to open or vise verse, etc) but can still do the same move the follower then often gets the move, don't ask me why but it amazes me how often that works.
    Great advice. Try modifying your lead so that the lady can follow you or find moves that the lady can follow. Never instruct her during a freestyle, just dance and have fun

  12. #32
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Having said that it does not worry generally if a follower cannot get a move I am trying to lead, it might be my lead
    It is. Always

  13. #33
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Thanks for all the replies ... a lot to digest and comprehend here.
    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ... a simple bit of advise may help alot. ... Should I say anything? at present I don't.
    That's one I find very tough to judge. For me, it's very rare that I'll say anything. I'm most likely to do it if I'm dancing with someone relatively new who I think is very good. I'm more likely to pick something out of their dance and tell them I liked it - particularly if they seem nervous or uncertain (eg, "great tension - it made it really good to dance with you" or "you're an incredibly light dancer and easy to lead"). This is always at the end of a dance and I've had a few people give me similar feedback.

    One of my dislikes about Ceroc in the UK is the fact they don't do enough to teach the building blocks of dancing - tension, how to spin, lead and follow etc. In all my Ceroc classes in the UK over the years, I've never heard these things mentioned. They have come up in classes by independents and I'm sure they're covered in workshops and at weekenders. But these things are so fundamental, they should be taught in every class. I know it can be done...

    I occasionally say something mid-move. This is particularly true if they seem unsure about following a move. One of my favourites is a drop that has a big, overturned wrap as the set-up. While I do lead the whole wrap, the latter half is very lightly led (which it should be). When leading this move with someone for the first time, I often have to say, "keep going" or something along those lines. I do this because I love that move and it is an uncommon movement that many people aren't familiar with. I still lead it properly.

    To try and sum up the other points of view (this is how I think, paraphrasing, categorisation and summation)...

    One camp is, "shut up and dance" - ie just get on with the dancing. As a leader, it's your responsibility to lead; if you're not being followed, you need to either fix your lead or revert to moves you can lead with that follow.

    The other camp is, "I want to help other's enjoy the moves I love, so I help them learn them" - ie, they will give advice and actually teach moves to people.

    And a few of us are still lost, stumbling in the woods between the two camps.
    Last edited by geoff332; 10th-October-2008 at 12:41 PM.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by swp
    If a fella can't lead a move properly he shouldn't be doing it in freestyle. Full. Stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Hmmm.

    He may not realise he isn't leading it properly.
    Surely he will when it doesn't go quite how he planned? Either it goes wrong because his partner has missed the lead altogther, or she hesitates slightly.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    He may be leading it perfectly well for a certain calibre of follower but finding it doesn't work with less experienced followers - there's a different argument there about adjusting level of dance to suit one's partner I guess
    OK, without wishing to sound cocky I would class myself as a high calibre dancer and can pretty much follow any lead. But that's the point - if the lead isn't there to start with I can't follow it - all I can do is guess / ask / do my own sweet thing for a couple of beats / stop dead and look puzzled.

    I can dance the lead too, and agree that you need to adjust your lead depending on your partner - but you should be able to work out in the first couple of moves how much lead you need to give - but whether you are dancing with a gifted beginner, or an experienced dancer with more enthusiasm than ability - the lead still has to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Just how do leaders work out how to lead things properly if they don't try them in freestyle?
    Surely this is what the class is all about? Learning the move properly and having the chance to do it with a number of different partners so that the movement and the lead can be learnt?

  15. #35
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    But that's the point - if the lead isn't there to start with I can't follow it - all I can do is guess / ask / do my own sweet thing for a couple of beats / stop dead and look puzzled.
    But absence of lead is a different topic to the one that we were discussing which was a sub-optimal (in the eyes of the follower) lead. Overall, I also sense a belief in your posting that the quality of lead is paramount i.e if a leader is good enough they can lead well with everyone and that, to me, does quite a disservice to the skillset (admittedly very different to leading) that the followers need to develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    but you should be able to work out in the first couple of moves how much lead you need to give
    I'd have thought you'd need to give the same amount ('how much') lead to all levels of follower albeit the complexity of what you were leading may differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    I can dance the lead too
    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    Surely this is what the class is all about? Learning the move properly and having the chance to do it with a number of different partners so that the movement and the lead can be learnt?
    If you've learned to lead in MJ classes typical to the ones I have done in the past you'll know that the class is often not very helpful in teaching a leader how to perfect a particular lead since
    1 - The follow knows what is coming
    2 - Many follows will step through their steps regardless of the presence or quality of lead

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    If the guy is a bit of an arrogant tw@t, I will either just carry on dancing (and then find the best dancer in the room and dance the next couple of tracks in front of him)
    My favourite !

    I hadn't been to a venue I demo at for a little while for various reasons and was with a woman doing her second ever intermediate class who insisted on trying to correct me throughout, I was sorely tempted to cry 'do you know who I am ?!' but instead took the same approach as you, as soon as the freestyle bit started I grabbed a favourite partner and let rip.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    My favourite !

    I hadn't been to a venue I demo at for a little while for various reasons and was with a woman doing her second ever intermediate class who insisted on trying to correct me throughout, I was sorely tempted to cry 'do you know who I am ?!' but instead took the same approach as you, as soon as the freestyle bit started I grabbed a favourite partner and let rip.
    I had this with a crew member when I visted a venue far from home while I was on a non-dance related trip. The crew member gave me instruction on the the semi-circle, bouncing my hand to mark the beat and over-rotating. By the end of the lesson I was pretty good at all those things

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I had this with a crew member when I visted a venue far from home while I was on a non-dance related trip. The crew member gave me instruction on the the semi-circle, bouncing my hand to mark the beat and over-rotating. By the end of the lesson I was pretty good at all those things
    Andy Andy Andy - is there a thread that you aren't capable of including the dreaded semi circle in ?!

  19. #39
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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Originally Posted by swp
    I don't like it at all. If a fella can't lead a move properly he shouldn't be doing it in freestyle. Full. Stop.
    Does your comment mean that a leader cannot introduce any form of improvisation or creativity when he is dancing with a follower he considers capable.

    Taking what is probabally the least contraversal situation such as when the leader reacts totally off the cuff and instantaneously to the track being played ie there is a track that says "move to the right and then to the left" and the leader tries this. Lets say in these types of circumstances sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. Should the leader stop his improvisation.

    Your comment says he should and I think you are wrong because it would take a hell of alot of fun out of my dancing for instance.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ..... Try modifying your lead so that the lady can follow you
    I was wondering if leaders or followers can give any tips where modifying a lead helps the follower to execute a move. Two examples I have in mind are as follows:

    1 Changing your grip

    I do a Tango syncopated move in ballroom grip and would say 90 of the 100 followers I try to do this with follow really well. Later in the dance I may try the move with the other 10 again but in open hold and maybe a further 6 will get the move. I may then try the move again with the 4 remaining followers but with a much stronger lead in ballroom grip (I generally prefer a light lead) and maybe 2 more will get it. Of the two remaining one will realise there is a problem and ask what to do, generally all I need to say is follow my chest with your chest and it resolves things. Occasionally you cannot work things out with a follower.

    2 Clockwise and anticlockwise turns in one move

    One move that comes to mind is a swizzle (arm lock) and reverse swizzle. I may lead the follower in one direction into the move and the follower will not turn and even try again without success. However if I then lead the follower the reverse way into the move the follower turns immediately.

    I would appreciate any other examples of modifying the lead to enable the follower to execute a move.

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