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Thread: Dance Instructors

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    Dance Instructors

    There's a certain type of person I've noticed in my dancing that I find really strange. I'd like to get some views on this.

    Firstly, a guy (it's invariably a guy) who often seems to be spending time telling his partners how to dance. I'm not talking about the occasional giving someone a hand with a move they don't know or an experienced dancer helping out a beginner. I'm talking about a newish intermediate dancer consistently stopping on the dancefloor and trying to tell the woman (again, it's always a woman) he's dancing with a move she may not know. As a rule, the guys I've seen doing this are not particularly good dancers themselves (in every case I can think of, their technique was very poor...).

    I find this behaviour very hard to comprehend. If someone asks me directly, I'll happily show them a move (assuming I know it). If I'm dancing with someone I know well, I'll occasionally talk them through a move that I want to try out (or work through a move we did in class or a favourite move that they don't know and I've unsuccessfully tried to lead them through). I've always believed that if someone doesn't follow my lead, the most likely problem is my lead. I occasionally give someone, particularly a beginner a tip on their dancing if I spot something that can be readily improved and can find a way of phrasing it positively.

    I'm interested in 9at least) three perspectives on this...

    From guys - particularly any guys who might do this sort of thing frequently. What are your views on this particular behaviour?

    From women - how do you feel about people who do this? My suspicion is some people like it (which I find as incomprehensible as the guy's behaviour). Again, I'd like to hear views from people who like this and people who don't.

    Finally, from teachers and other people running venues: what's your attitude towards this?

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Firstly, a guy (it's invariably a guy) who often seems to be spending time telling his partners how to dance. I'm not talking about the occasional giving someone a hand with a move they don't know or an experienced dancer helping out a beginner. I'm talking about a newish intermediate dancer consistently stopping on the dancefloor and trying to tell the woman (again, it's always a woman) he's dancing with a move she may not know. As a rule, the guys I've seen doing this are not particularly good dancers themselves (in every case I can think of, their technique was very poor...).
    Reminds me of this post I did a few months back...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    There was this bloke on the dance floor and every single dance he had, he stopped mid dance to give instruction to his follower on how to do some fancy foot work. Actually it wasn't that fancy at all and I would say very easy to lead...or guide.

    I asked someone who he was and I was told he taught MJ for 20 years.

    Anyway...me being me I asked him to dance hoping he'd do the same to me.

    Sure enough, he stopped mid dance and started to try and talk me through a cross over type step. The conversation went like this...

    DT "DON'T instruct me, lead me"

    Numpty "But I don't know how to lead this move"

    DT "Don't do it then...if you can't lead this move, do ones that you can lead"

    The look on his face. I swear it took him a good 20 seconds to comprehend what I had just said to him. Obviously no one has ever actually pulled him up on such poor dancing technique's before.

    We spent the remainder of the dance doing simple moves with no eye contact. I watched him during the rest of the evening and he still continued to talk through half of the steps he was doing.

    What irritates me is that some, or maybe even most followers would see him as an experienced dancer and think that what he does is the norm.

    Tw@t.
    It really, really irritates me when a lead (always a man) tried to "teach" me a move mid dance and as you say Geoff, it's usually some Numpty who can't even dance well. If you can't lead it, don't do it & I will always pick someone up on it too and tell them straight.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    From women - how do you feel about people who do this? My suspicion is some people like it (which I find as incomprehensible as the guy's behaviour). Again, I'd like to hear views from people who like this and people who don't.
    I've come across a few of these guys...... I've danced MJ for about 8 years, and would say I'm a reasonable dancer, so I always think it's hilarious (or sometimes quite annoying), when a relatively new intermediate dancer tries to tell me what I should be doing on the dance floor. "Now you're meant to turn that way, and then step on that foot, and then twist your body like so, and end up in a ladies' double twisted headlock straightjacket with thumbscrews" (Or something like that).

    The funniest thing is when they just shout the name of the move at you, mid-dance, expecting you to have memorised all the names of every MJ move ever invented....

    My response depends on the guy's attitude, the situation and my mood. If I'm in a good mood, and he's not hurt me and seems like a nice enough chap (who just needs to learn to lead), I normally just smile and carry on dancing, and then thank him for the dance.

    If the guy is a bit of an arrogant tw@t, I will either just carry on dancing (and then find the best dancer in the room and dance the next couple of tracks in front of him), or I might say: Well, if you perhaps try to lead it, I'll do my best to follow.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Ive not noticed this really, though my wife said she got one of these guys in a lucky dip competition once. He didnt stop, he just shouted out what he was going to do next. Some names she'd never heard of. I think she shouted "JUST LEAD ME" at him.

    I rarely ever talk during a dance (only ever to say "how you doing" or something at the beginning) and wouldnt dream of discussing/teaching/learning something during the dance itself. Bizarre concept if you ask me.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    It really, really irritates me when a lead (always a man) tried to "teach" me a move mid dance and as you say Geoff, it's usually some Numpty who can't even dance well. If you can't lead it, don't do it & I will always pick someone up on it too and tell them straight.
    But...brought along a work colleague for the last two weeks (a man), and he's getting the same from a couple of (not so) helpful women who are doing nothing but confusing him. He's doing really well with the few moves he's learnt, but's getting annoyed at women who insist on trying to lead him in new moves - although he's a nice guy and wouldn't dream of saying anything to them

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Hi Geoff
    My view is if it's someone who's a better dancer than me, and/or I'm struggling to pick a specific move up, then I've prob told the guy that I need talking through it. If we're both trying to work through moves, then I can usually learn something from it as well, cos I don't know all moves.

    Sometimes it is people who're newer intermediates, and they're just that type of person who always tells the girls what they're doing wrong to cover up their bad leading. If they're less annoying I tend to point out the specific thing that I'm finding hard to follow, and what I'd try if I was leading. If that doesn't stop them or if they're being condescending or annoying, I'll say I don't enjoy the move they're trying to tell me to do and if they're really bad I'll start picking up on anything they're horrendous at (usually gripping with thumbs in my experience).

    And then avoid them the rest of the time. There are quite a few women who do the same to men though - I get it when I'm taxiing & leading, or see husbands being bossed by their beginner wives...riles me so much. Just leave the men be to learn on their own - they'll probably do better without the interference from a woman who's probably not as good as they think.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    From women - how do you feel about people who do this? My suspicion is some people like it (which I find as incomprehensible as the guy's behaviour). Again, I'd like to hear views from people who like this and people who don't.
    I don't like it at all. If a fella can't lead a move properly he shouldn't be doing it in freestyle. Full. Stop.
    But... if he's just lead me through a new move and I though hey. I like that I may ask him to show me through it slowly - after the dance, to one side.
    In my experience it's often the ones who have muddled through a few intermediate classes, maybe done a few workshops, and suddenly have a newfound burst of confidence that they just have to share. - in which case I say Bless, but please don't. And sometimes it's just the annoying know-alls.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Finally, from teachers and other people running venues: what's your attitude towards this?
    I'm not one of these, but surely there would be concerns that the numpty could potentially be "teaching" the move wrongly, unsafely, particularly with dips / drops?

    Sometimes you'll see a taxi dancer / coach going through a move with a beginner - if it's something they've done in the class that week (or even in recent weeks) then fair enough I suppose as they are meant to help. But if a coach / taxi tried to do it with me in freestyle (having been dancing MJ for longer than I care to admit) they'd get short shrift.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post

    Sometimes you'll see a taxi dancer / coach going through a move with a beginner - if it's something they've done in the class that week (or even in recent weeks) then fair enough I suppose as they are meant to help. But if a coach / taxi tried to do it with me in freestyle (having been dancing MJ for longer than I care to admit) they'd get short shrift.
    I taxi, but actually we're told when we start taxi-ing that we're not meant to suggest corrections or give advice unless we're specifically asked. The only time I'd actually offer advice is picking up someone's thumb grip if they insist on grabbing too much. And that's just an action, rather than telling them directly.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    From women - how do you feel about people who do this? My suspicion is some people like it (which I find as incomprehensible as the guy's behaviour). Again, I'd like to hear views from people who like this and people who don't.
    Although this has happened to me a couple of times over the years I think my response to it depends on the manner in which the lead is trying to "instruct", if it is someone who is genuinely a nice guy but has just got a bit enthusiastic about a new move which they think they have learnt but can't lead - I try to go along with it. I tend to find that they have forgotten that move by the next week anyway.

    If the lead is arrogant and condescending then I will probably plump more for the DT approach ie "if you can't lead it don't do it"

    I do find it mildly irritating but luckily it hasn't happened that often to cause a problem.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    I'm guilty on occasions of doing this. I'm also guilty of doing it in class sometimes too.

    I know you're not talking about the occasional word or piece of advice here Geoff, so I suppose this may nto be what you're looking for but for what it's worth this is my opinion.

    I am a reasonably experienced dancer. At the very least, I'm more experienced than the majority of the people I dance with, and have a pretty good memory when it comes to technique pointers.

    If I'm dancing with someone who is doing something poorly that could be fixed relatively easily, and I get the impression that they're trying hard and want to be better than they allready are then I'll usually offer a simple suggestion. I'm talking about comments along the line of "just take smaller steps" or "just firm up your forearm a little and it'll be easier to feel the lead" here, not talking through moves step-by-step.

    It's a judgement call. Some people want that feedback. Some people don't. Some people who think they want that feedback don't really. Some people can't handle feedback regardless of whether they want it or not. One thing I can say is that I've been grateful for the times a woman has gently pointed out something that needs correcting to me, and paying that forward would seem to be a service to the community if done carefully. I'm sure there have been a few occasions when I made the wrong call unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25
    Sometimes it is people who're newer intermediates, and they're just that type of person who always tells the girls what they're doing wrong to cover up their bad leading. If they're less annoying I tend to point out the specific thing that I'm finding hard to follow, and what I'd try if I was leading. If that doesn't stop them or if they're being condescending or annoying, I'll say I don't enjoy the move they're trying to tell me to do and if they're really bad I'll start picking up on anything they're horrendous at (usually gripping with thumbs in my experience).
    Sadly, there are also numptys.

    To be fair though I think some of the reason these guys (and the occasional woman I might add) get this way is because everything always works for them in class. They're never going to learn to lead something if the follower doesn't let them, and in my experience most followers in classes just step through the moves on their own.

    The guys who are predisposed to acting like d!ckheads in freestyle have often had their attitude reinforced by followers over time.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    I've written quite a bit on this subject over the years. I've quoted 2 of these below.

    As a rule of thumb, in the freestyle my advice is to work with what you're given. If you're dancing with a lady your objective is to give her a good dance - not to theach her how to dance. If someone is hurting you don't suffer in silence. But if someone is simply inexperienced or a weak dancer do not point that out to them - if you're such a fabulous dancer that you can instruct her you will also be good enough to give her a great dance without any instruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy's Rule 7
    7. Standing or Coaching on the dance floor - Do not stand on the dance floor chatting or watching the dancers. Stand or sit at the side. Do not coach other dancers on the dance floor. The only people who should be teaching are the teachers and taxi dancers - apart from giving simple tips, taxi dancers and teachers will take people to the side of the floor or completely off the dance area to offer coaching. N.B. Many dancers find uninvited lessons insulting during the freestyle and this should be avoided, no matter how well intentioned. Also, couples having an impromptu lesson on a crowded floor are a hazard to themselves and others.
    Quote Originally Posted by A tip from a recent newsletter sent by Andy
    Acceptable Behaviour

    MEN: If you ask a girl to dance and she does not follow your lead properly, cut back on your level of difficulty. If you do not know the level of a partner, the dance should start out with something very basic and progress only at the rate that she seems to follow you. It is unacceptable behavior to "instruct" her on how to follow you, or criticize ANY part of her dancing. If she does something other than what you led, smile and take credit for the pattern. No matter what - Be a gentleman.

    WOMEN: Accept a dance gracefully. Good, bad or indifferent, make those "3 minutes" memorable.

    ALL: In class, or out, it is unacceptable behavior to "teach" someone something unless you are the teacher or crew member and he/she is the student. Remember, behind every person who can't dance is someone who told them that they couldn't dance. Please remember, there are some female dancers who "dance scared. They look hesitant and not sure of their dancing because of constant criticism from people who are not qualified to comment. PLEASE BE NICE.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But if someone is simply inexperienced or a weak dancer do not point that out to them - if you're such a fabulous dancer that you can instruct her you will also be good enough to give her a great dance without any instruction.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    All the quotes posts have been edited - apologies if I misrepresent anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Reminds me of this post I did a few months back...
    Sorry, I missed your earlier post - it is the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    The funniest thing is when they just shout the name of the move at you, mid-dance, expecting you to have memorised all the names of every MJ move ever invented....
    I know a bunch of moves by various names (depending where and from whom I learnt it). Most of the interesting ones have the more obscure names - so that rules it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Well, if you perhaps try to lead it, I'll do my best to follow.
    That, perhaps, sums up the best response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I rarely ever talk during a dance (only ever to say "how you doing" or something at the beginning) and wouldnt dream of discussing/teaching/learning something during the dance itself. Bizarre concept if you ask me.
    I don't speak a lot when I'm dancing. Usually it's, "oops, I messed that up" or "don't worry" (in response to an apology from the woman).
    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    ... he's getting the same from a couple of (not so) helpful women who are doing nothing but confusing him...
    I've encountered that very rarely. My usual response has been to lead something horrendously complicated (I have a few that I know I lead well and can bamboozle anyone!! Yes, I know I'm not a nice person.)
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    My view is if it's someone who's a better dancer than me, and/or I'm struggling to pick a specific move up, then I've prob told the guy that I need talking through it. If we're both trying to work through moves, then I can usually learn something from it as well, cos I don't know all moves.
    There are one or two people who I'll "play around with" - and that usually means we're both trying to figure moves out (and we learn from one another). But these are people I know very well, and it's something I might do one a month. If they're a good follow, then it's great for me to figure out how to lead the move.

    If they're a better dancer than me, I'm just worried about giving them a good dance. If they offer me advice, I'll definitely listen.
    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    But... if he's just lead me through a new move and I though hey. I like that I may ask him to show me through it slowly - after the dance, to one side.
    If the person being taught initiates it, it's a very different thing. I do, usually with people I know, try a new move a few times. Sometimes that means slowing it down and working through it. But this is almost always a two-way thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    And sometimes it's just the annoying know-alls.
    People who think they know it all annoy those of us who do.
    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    ... there would be concerns that the numpty could potentially be "teaching" the move wrongly, unsafely, particularly with dips / drops?
    Another pet hate is guys who throw people into dips and drops when their technique is poor. Admittedly, I do drops a fair bit ... but I never throw someone into a proper drop unless I know they can do them; otherwise, I make sure it's something where I can control (and hold) them completely. Perhaps I'm just arrogant, but I think I know the basic technique well (I've had it drummed into me pretty hard).
    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    Sometimes you'll see a taxi dancer / coach going through a move with a beginner - if it's something they've done in the class that week (or even in recent weeks) then fair enough I suppose as they are meant to help.
    ...and...
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    I taxi, but actually we're told when we start taxi-ing that we're not meant to suggest corrections or give advice unless we're specifically asked.
    If anyone should do it, it should be the taxi dancers (or, of course, the teacher).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan in Notts View Post
    I tend to find that they have forgotten that move by the next week anyway.
    I'm lucky if I can remember it five minutes later. I have the attention span of a gnat on speed.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ... I'll usually offer a simple suggestion. I'm talking about comments along the line of "just take smaller steps" or "just firm up your forearm a little and it'll be easier to feel the lead" here, not talking through moves step-by-step ...
    That's a different thing. Offering small tips can be done quickly and painlessly, without disrupting the dance. I do that, but infrequently and never mind if someone offers me some constructive advice. I recently danced with a beginner and threw her through a bunch of tricky moves - some of which she handled well, some of which she didn't. At the end of the dance, I had a quick chat, basically saying, "I was leading you through some tricky moves and you followed really well".
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Sadly, there are also numptys.
    The numptys will inherit the earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    The guys who are predisposed to acting like d!ckheads in freestyle have often had their attitude reinforced by followers over time.
    There do seem to be a fair number of women who enjoy it. I find that as bewildering as the guy's behaviour...

    Perhaps they want to share their inheritance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I've quoted 2 of these below.
    Good advice.

    To sum up...
    • If you lead it, they will follow.
    • All of the women so far have universally condemned the practice, when taken to excess.
    • Things like an occasional tip is quite different from stopping a dance to tell someone how to do a move (incessant correction while dancing is just as much of a problem).
    • The attitude in which any advice is presented is hugely important. A friendly tip is probably OK; a know-it-all attitude is bad.
    • When someone asks for help, or two people working through a move generally OK (and I see it as different from what I was talking about).
    What I've still not heard is from anyone who enjoys it. I'm sure people do - but I'm sure they exist.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I'm lucky if I can remember it five minutes later. I have the attention span of a gnat on speed.
    .
    As long as you don't dance like one.

    Just a thought leading on from this thread - does anyone have an opinion on being approached by another dance couple asking to be shown a move/series of movements which they have just seen you doing on the dancefloor. I assume people would take it as a compliment but would you show them how to do it or would you direct them to a teacher because of a concern about safety implications?

    There are often groups of people practising/demonstrating these sorts of moves (usually involving dips or drops) to their friends and I just wondered what the policy might be for organisers?

    Apols if this is going over old ground again.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan in Notts View Post
    As long as you don't dance like one.

    Just a thought leading on from this thread - does anyone have an opinion on being approached by another dance couple asking to be shown a move/series of movements which they have just seen you doing on the dancefloor. I assume people would take it as a compliment but would you show them how to do it or would you direct them to a teacher because of a concern about safety implications?

    There are often groups of people practising/demonstrating these sorts of moves (usually involving dips or drops) to their friends and I just wondered what the policy might be for organisers?

    Apols if this is going over old ground again.
    It sometimes happens - and I do take it as a compliment but you have to be careful. While I was part of the crew at my local venue I'd take someone off to the side and go through the move carefully, but now that I'm not crew I'd direct the person to the teacher much like Andy's rulebook implies.

    Different for close friends, for people I know well it's share and share alike.

    I hate myself for saying it but I talked my wife through a move only on Monday night and on reading this thread I'm reminded that even for partners this is not acceptable behaviour. I never do this with anyone else and I shouldn't do this with her either

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    If a fella can't lead a move properly he shouldn't be doing it in freestyle. Full. Stop.
    Hmmm.

    He may not realise he isn't leading it properly.

    He may be leading it perfectly well for a certain calibre of follower but finding it doesn't work with less experienced followers - there's a different argument there about adjusting level of dance to suit one's partner I guess

    Just how do leaders work out how to lead things properly if they don't try them in freestyle? Chicken and egg scenario I'd have thought. Admittedly lifts, aerials, dips, drops and other moves with a higher than average potential for physical injury I wouldn't advise be perfected in freestyle but then again personally I wouldn't advise they be led at all in social dancing with unfamiliar partners.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by swp View Post
    I don't like it at all. If a fella can't lead a move properly he shouldn't be doing it in freestyle. Full.
    Echoing RobD, it can be hard to learn how to lead a move, and especially how your random lady who didn't do the class, is going to react, without trying it.

    Also not all moves have been learnt or can be reproduced. They may be based on tiny sections combined in different ways and based on opportunities. Being different every time, they don't always come off, but you only learn in freestyle the elements that will and won't with particular variations of partner.


    As a general point, I think sometimes ladies express a very rigid view of what is proper, while if that view actually was reality the leaders available to them would be relatively limited.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Also not all moves have been learnt or can be reproduced. They may be based on tiny sections combined in different ways and based on opportunities. Being different every time, they don't always come off, but you only learn in freestyle the elements that will and won't with particular variations of partner.
    Half of my dancing is constructed of moves assembled on the fly - they often don't go how I thought they might, but I don't think I've ever felt any problem with them 'coming off'

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    As a general point, I think sometimes ladies express a very rigid view of what is proper, while if that view actually was reality the leaders available to them would be relatively limited.
    I'm not sure I agree - most ladies I've danced with have put up with all sorts of cheekiness and some completely spontaneous moves. For that very small minority that look a bit like bunnies in the headlights I simply go back to dancing conventional moves. Sometimes I myself have been shocked into 'headlight bunny' syndrome (first time I danced with Trouble comes back to mind) and it had the same effect - back to beginner stuff.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    They are talking about me again ....

    I often "share" my favourite moves with partners that I connect with. I have a a policy of trying to extend the boundaries. Usually my selected partners say they like it. which alas proves little because a lot of ladies do not like to express negative opinions. OTOH there are enough ladies who really do like it enough to seek me out and ask for some of those moves. They say, sadly, nobody else does those them.

    MJ is not a one rule for all environment.

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    Re: Dance Instructors

    I have probably in my newer days been guilty of this and I apologise

    Now I am a tad more experienced (8 years), if I am dancing with someone I dance with infrequently then I will always use a few beginners moves to start with, it usually gives me an idea how good a dancer is or not and adjust my style accordingly.

    There's often no need to give advice it, Nina D. told me that on one occasion about freestyles they should just be enjoyed.

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