Working with the French...

[Lou]

As some of you know, I'm a freelance Business Analyst - which means that I'll take fixed length contracts with large companies (usually between 3 months and a year) to help them out on a particular project. I really enjoy it, as I've had some varied and very interesting work.

Sadly, the credit crunch has meant that these contracts are rarer. However, there are still plenty of permanent jobs, and an agency has persuaded me to interview for one of these tomorrow.

I'm doing my homework, and I've discovered that the company is French. I've plenty of experience of working in mixed nationality teams, but I've never worked for a French company before. I'm well qualified for the role, and I've done a very similar job for their UK equivalent in my past. If this job were a contract, I'd go full out to try and get it.

But it's a big commitment to go back to working as a "permie". My main worry is about the company culture. It's in a very male dominated, very macho, business sector anyway, so (from experience) it's going to be quite an aggressive culture - but when I read these excerpts on a BBC website about working in France I'm wondering what I'll be letting myself in for :

In Britain we tend to share power more than in France, in that groups will share power and responsibility. This is why we have more meetings, why we are good team players, why bosses try not to be too far distanced from their employees. In France power is given to the individual who has the most competence, very often the best education and training and also experience. And it's that person's responsibility to take the full accountability and to take the decisions. So they don't cultivate teams.

If they want something from you, what they will do in the first instance is criticise you, put you on the back foot so they have an advantage. They are always in attacking, and that is, I would say, something that once you are aware of it - there must a particular school they go to for this - but once you are aware of it you can obviously counter it. But it took me a long time I have to say.

As there are a few French folk here, I thought I'd ask if this is typical!

[stewart38]

As some of you know, I'm a freelance Business Analyst - which means that I'll take fixed length contracts with large companies (usually between 3 months and a year) to help them out on a particular project. I really enjoy it, as I've had some varied and very interesting work.

Sadly, the credit crunch has meant that these contracts are rarer. However, there are still plenty of permanent jobs, and an agency has persuaded me to interview for one of these tomorrow.

I'm doing my homework, and I've discovered that the company is French. I've plenty of experience of working in mixed nationality teams, but I've never worked for a French company before. I'm well qualified for the role, and I've done a very similar job for their UK equivalent in my past. If this job were a contract, I'd go full out to try and get it.

But it's a big commitment to go back to working as a "permie". My main worry is about the company culture. It's in a very male dominated, very macho, business sector anyway, so (from experience) it's going to be quite an aggressive culture - but when I read these excerpts on a BBC website about working in France I'm wondering what I'll be letting myself in for :

As there are a few French folk here, I thought I'd ask if this is typical!

I worked for AXA for a while before they closed the whole office and made everyone redundant . That was over 10 years ago

As you dont say what company it is not sure how people could be of help ?

I deal with the French during work and see lots of them on the underground going to work and then going home

Not many wear onion carry a large French loaf or ride a bicycle

[Lou]

As you dont say what company it is not sure how people could be of help ?

I'm hoping that anyone who's worked for French companies would be able to say if the quotes I'd put were typical of their experiences. Like, for example, whether it's true there's a tendency towards fewer meetings, authoritative bosses, less touchy-feely team stuff, etc. Does that help?

Not many wear onion carry a large French loaf or ride a bicycle

But some do? Excellent. That's the sort of info I'm looking for!

[Martin]

Not many wear onion carry a large French loaf or ride a bicycle

But do the women have underarm hair, never use deoderant.

Do the men **** in the corner of the room, or wherever they want.

Do they eat silly little pastries for breakfast?

[stewart38]

But do the women have underarm hair, never use deoderant.

If it help Lou ill have a stiff on the unbderground on the way home from work ?

[geoff332]

As there are a few French folk here, I thought I'd ask if this is typical!

Very little is typical. I'm assuming that you'll be working in the UK, for the French company. If it is a UK office, then it would be important to know how big the UK office is and the mix of staff there. The culture is likely to be a mixture of the company culture - which is likely to be grounded in French norms - and the office culture - which will be determined by the mix of staff there.

Secondly, culture is such a slippery term: both national and corporate culture can mean a lot of different things. Regardless of definition, culture is constructed by the actions/interactions/reactions of the people who constitute the culture (technically, that's all embedded within structure and process: but both structure and process can be construed as social/cultural constructions as well, so it becomes a big circle). The point of this preamble is to emphasise that I wouldn't get too hung-up on things like culture and related terms.

I suspect you really want to know things like how will you be treated by your boss and by your coworkers. Funnily enough, the biggest determinants of that are your superior and your coworkers (yes, they are part of the culture, but it's easier to deal with specifics and presume they will be indicative of the broader working environment). Obviously, in a recruitment phase, everyone's on their best behaviour. But you can usually get a pretty good sense of the people you will be working with.

The third thing I'd pay attention to is your own position. Are you taking this job because the contract market is dead, because you want to go back to being permanent, or it's one of several opportunities - both contract and permanent. If the former, then I suspect you'd like to go back into the contract market when the economy picks up. That would suggest that you judge the position on very different criteria than if you want to make a permanent career at this company. Specifically, if you were happy to take this role as a contract, and you are not seeing this as genuinely permanent move, then you've already got the answer.

For myself, figuring out the position is relatively easy (you kn0ow if the job's a good fit for you quite easily). The tricky part is working out the people you'll be working with. My advice on that is to make your judgements on the people you meet, and anything specific you can dig up on the company itself, rather than try to infer things from national culture.

[Dreadful Scathe]

If it help Lou ill have a stiff on the unbderground on the way home from work ?

please don't, you WILL get arrested for that

[Dreadful Scathe]

As some of you know, I'm a freelance Business Analyst - which means that I'll take fixed length contracts with large companies (usually between 3 months and a year) to help them out on a particular project. I really enjoy it, as I've had some varied and very interesting work.

What, even down there ? You prepared to come up here again ? Theres work

[tsh]

I spent a while working in a french office of an english company, and I think I'd agree that there is more individual responsibility and accountability. In an engineering environment this felt like a good thing. I think there was a fairly strong team spirit, everyone meeting for coffee in the kitchen, and eating together for example - but this was 'non-work' time.

Sean

[Lou]

If it help Lou ill have a stiff on the unbderground on the way home from work ?

That's got to be post of the year!

The third thing I'd pay attention to is your own position. Are you taking this job because the contract market is dead, because you want to go back to being permanent, or it's one of several opportunities - both contract and permanent. If the former, then I suspect you'd like to go back into the contract market when the economy picks up. That would suggest that you judge the position on very different criteria than if you want to make a permanent career at this company. Specifically, if you were happy to take this role as a contract, and you are not seeing this as genuinely permanent move, then you've already got the answer.

Spot on, Geoff. Thanks for your post. Lots of food for thought there. I really do appreciate your comments.

I don't have to rush into finding a job (perm or contract), but the spec's such a good match, I'd be daft not to consider finding out more about it. It's just that I've worked for 2 companies in a similar sector, and hated the corporate culture. And the idea of going back to permie to such a company worries me. If it were the right company, I'd be happy to commit.

You're right - I need to dig more at the interview.

What, even down there ? You prepared to come up here again ? Theres work

I know there's work. I had a call, early on, about the old place. I'm still hoping to find something more local.

[stewart38]

That's got to be post of the year!

Spot on, Geoff. Thanks for your post. Lots of food for thought there. I really do appreciate your comments.

There you have it I did the post and Geoff filled in the blanks

I’ve always worked for very large multi national organisations the current one appears to have more a lick arse attitude but I’m way past all that

People sending works e-mail at 1.03am etc

No one saying when asked in a room of 45 they would like to attend monthly meetings in working hours but then many suggesting it via e-mail etc

[Caro]

whether it's true there's a tendency towards fewer meetings, authoritative bosses, less touchy-feely team stuff, etc. Does that help?

It's kinda odd to comment as I have only worked in France for about a year or so. I would say yes, there is probably a tendency towards more responsibilities on individuals and less on teams - although it depends on companies and is definately more pronounced in familial businesses or (smallish) corporations that have started as such.
There is definately a lot of elitism in France, i.e. from primary school where the one who's got the best results at maths is implicitly declared (and recognised as) the most intelligent one up to which 'Grance Ecole' (private school instead of the mundane university) you went to. They tend not to appreciate as much as the British originality and unusual career paths. It's all very general though, there are exceptions and things are slowly changing.


I think the biggest shock for you if you work in a complete French environment (you didn't say if it was in the UK ? if so culture will most likely be a mix of the 2 - which should be good) is going to be the way people relate to each other. I.e. we tend to say exactly what we mean and often misunderstand the British.
When you say, 'this is not bad', we understand that's mediocre. Because that's what we mean when we say 'this is not bad'. (i.e. it is not good).
When you say 'I am not sure I will...' you usually mean it's 95% (or 100% often!) sure you won't. We understand '50/50'.
etc.

People tend to be more forward and aren't concerned about conflicts too much - whereas the Brits tend to try and avoid them (avoid making a fuss).

So you'll have to be very clear about what you really mean, because the French who are not used to the English will not understand you. Conversely don't be too offended if people are openly disagreeing with you or seem rude.

There's no 'pub after work' culture at all. People are social, but tend to invite each other's at their homes for 'aperitif', which you would only get if you start being friends with your colleagues. Oh and you don't get trashed at those (most people think that's gross past student life) - stick to a couple of glasses!

In traditional French cultures, it would be kinda rude and odd to go eat a sandwich at your desk when your team is sitting together at the canteen - meals are our social bonding time. It is not welcome to talk about work during them, it's meant to wind down, bitch about your boss, and enjoy the food and each other's company. To a lesser extend, the same applies for coffee breaks.

Also you don't start meetings by asking each other how your family is doing or other sort of random ice breaker small chat. That's just weird - there is a big divide between work life and 'private life'. Meetings start straight to the point. Although often 10 min late

That's the main things I can think of for now...

[FirstMove]

I did a 3 month punishment posting with a French outpost in Stevenage. It was a family firm, where the views of the family dunce (guess they posted him to the UK to put him out of harm's way) had more clout than the room full of very expensive analysts.

Main perks - the food in the staff restaurant was amazing. Wine at lunchtime was free (but I don't drink!).

Downside - when the important family members visited, business was only conducted in French. Lots of whinging about the Pound being too strong or weak.

[Daisy Chain]

Je suis part French et je drive un auto francais.


Daisy

(A Francophilic Little FLower)

[Dreadful Scathe]

There is definately a lot of elitism in France, i.e. from primary school where the one who's got the best results at maths is implicitly declared (and recognised as) the most intelligent one up to which 'Grance Ecole' (private school instead of the mundane university) you went to.

Still true in some places here too I'm sure

When you say, 'this is not bad', we understand that's mediocre. Because that's what we mean when we say 'this is not bad'. (i.e. it is not good).

Thats a funny one - i do tend to use that to mean 'mediocre' or at least 'average' but it is still generally seen as a positive comment and therefore not offensive. Its usually accompanied with an arching of the eyebrows and an emphasis on the 'NOT' to make it seem much more of a compliment than it actually is

When you say 'I am not sure I will...' you usually mean it's 95% (or 100% often!) sure you won't. We understand '50/50'.

I always mean it as 50/50, is this an English thing then?

In traditional French cultures, it would be kinda rude and odd to go eat a sandwich at your desk when your team is sitting together at the canteen - meals are our social bonding time.

I totally agree, and I get really annoyed at the culture in this country where you can work with people for months and never speak to them socially. I'd ban eating at desks.

Also you don't start meetings by asking each other how your family is doing or other sort of random ice breaker small chat. That's just weird - there is a big divide between work life and 'private life'.

Must admit that I have not come across that at all, but it would annoy me. Meetings should have a clear purpose. Though i have met many who ramble.

[John S]

the company culture. It's in a very male dominated, very macho, business sector anyway, so (from experience) it's going to be quite an aggressive culture -

Not many wear onion carry a large French loaf or ride a bicycle

But do the women have underarm hair, never use deoderant.

Do the men **** in the corner of the room, or wherever they want.

Do they eat silly little pastries for breakfast?

You know, I am soooo much wanting to read Franck's response to this.....................

[Lou]

Just an update to say thanks again to everyone who replied on this thread & PM'd me. You were really helpful. Even S38! After having a 2nd interview yesterday, I found out this morning that I've got the job!

So, farewell contracting! Hello "Proper Job".

[Beowulf]

Many moons ago I worked on the Scotland to Northern Ireland Natural Gas Pipeline project (As it was a bit of a mouthful the documentation simply called it the SNiP project)

Anyway it was a joint venture between Laing engineering and a French company called Entrepose Montalev (and I was effectively employed by a "company" called Entrepose Laing)

The French side were the directors and managers with some Directors from Laing on the board too but for the most part it was French run.

One day the director came storming into my office told me and my manager in a very gruff manner to "get into the office" we both sat down in our office with the Director who shut the door behind him. he then began what I can only describe as "interrogating" my manager about my performance. "Is he good?" "Does he keep good time?" "Are you happy with his work?" Both my manager and I assumed the same.. Something had happened and there'd been a complaint or something.. .. Quite the opposite! Apparently he'd heard a few reports about a project I'd taken on to streamline one of their systems and write a computer program to automate a laborious manual process. He wasn't there to fire me.. he was there to promote me and give me a pay rise !!

but his manner was very VERY confrontational. As you say I guess it was to put me on my back foot and give him a bargaining advantage.. if he'd came in saying I was brilliant I might have been tempted to ask for more. (not that I would of course)

So MY experience of workng for the french is ,yes, they can be a bit gruff and aggressive.. .. even when they're in a good mood !!

[MarkW]

Good luck

I'm a bit late to this thread. Lots of sound advice already give. I would reinforce the importance of lunchtime to the French - to the point of saying you should never suggest working through lunch to anyone French. If the building is on fire then that would mean that lunch might need to be eaten in another venue.

Also, the French have a sneaking admiration for the British (particularly the English) but they will never tell you this. I've never quite worked them out on this so can't say what it is they admire. But I guess we admire some French things but keep it to ourselves as well. Bloody hell! Something our two great nations have in common - at last!

Have fun

[Juju]

Je suis part French et je drive un auto francais.


Daisy

(A Francophilic Little FLower)

Ooh, moi aussi (half) and I used to drive une deux chevaux!

Juju

(A Copycat Little Forumite)