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Thread: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

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    Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    This was an article regarding a test on grammar taken by pupils at Harrow.

    Are you smarter than a 16-year-old? - Times Online

    I was interested in the questions on punctuation. Some of the placement of commas is debatable.

    It reminded me of a question from when I was little boy in shorts. How do you punctuate this correctly?

    Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the examiner's approval.

    Prize if you get it without Googling it (assuming it is there which it might not be).

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Stone me does it really matter?

    As long as kids can read, write, do maths and are polite and punctual then they will get on in life.

    I cannot do this and I have a sh1t load of gcse;s and 4 a levels and a degree.

    Oh and I can lift heavy weights really hugh all day long.
    Last edited by dave the scaffolder; 18th-September-2008 at 06:18 PM.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    After Smith?

    Hold on, Will just ask Fletch

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Stone me does it really matter?

    As long as kids can read, write, do maths and are polite and punctual then they will get on in life.

    I cannot do this and I have a sh1t load of gcse;s and 4 a levels and a degree.

    Oh and I can lift heavy weights really hugh all day long.
    Insert High.

    Delete hugh

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    This was an article regarding a test on grammar taken by pupils at Harrow.

    Are you smarter than a 16-year-old? - Times Online

    I was interested in the questions on punctuation. Some of the placement of commas is debatable.

    It reminded me of a question from when I was little boy in shorts. How do you punctuate this correctly?

    Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the examiner's approval.

    Prize if you get it without Googling it (assuming it is there which it might not be).
    Tidying up for the person who wanted the answer. It is:

    Smith, where Jones had had "had had", had had "had". "Had had" had had the examiner's approval.

    (or something like that)

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    This was an article regarding a test on grammar taken by pupils at Harrow.

    Are you smarter than a 16-year-old? - Times Online

    I was interested in the questions on punctuation. Some of the placement of commas is debatable.

    It reminded me of a question from when I was little boy in shorts. How do you punctuate this correctly?

    Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the examiner's approval.

    Prize if you get it without Googling it (assuming it is there which it might not be).
    My attempt , was I close ?

    Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the examiner's approval

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Oh and I can lift heavy weights really hugh all day long.
    Who is Hugh? What's his forum name?

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    It reminded me of a question from when I was little boy in shorts. How do you punctuate this correctly?

    Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the examiner's approval.

    Prize if you get it without Googling it (assuming it is there which it might not be).
    Sorry, JL, but the question you got in shorts was fatuous. At least, from the point of view of grammar. The point of punctuation is to communicate clearly. We need the sort of clues that pacing, emphasis and intonation provide in speech. Concocting a spurious sentence, leaving the appropriate punctuation out and trying to guess what the correct punctuation might be is as useful as converting a tune to a single note played at uniform intervals and guessing what the song is.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Oh, by the way, took the test and made one error.

    Smug smilie. Smiley? Smillie?

    Oops. Back to the blackboard...

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Sorry, JL, but the question you got in shorts was fatuous. At least, from the point of view of grammar. The point of punctuation is to communicate clearly. We need the sort of clues that pacing, emphasis and intonation provide in speech. Concocting a spurious sentence, leaving the appropriate punctuation out and trying to guess what the correct punctuation might be is as useful as converting a tune to a single note played at uniform intervals and guessing what the song is.
    Hmmm - maybe "fatuous" to the likes of you and me. To Professors at Universities - well they just love 'em (the one I quoted can be found in learned books (eg. see 'Text and Thinking' by Roger van der Velde)).

    (Stephen Pinkers 'The Language Instinct' is a well worth a read btw - if you haven't already - and includes the 'buffalo' one below).

    Try the buffalo one for size:

    Buffalo buffalo, Buffalo buffalo buffalo, buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

    This is, surprisingly, a grammatically correct sentence.
    It was conceived by William J. Rapaport, professor at the University of Buffalo, while an undergrad at Indiana University, and featured in Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct.

    Buffalo buffalo (bison in Buffalo) Buffalo buffalo buffalo (who other Buffalo bison bully) buffalo (will bully) Buffalo buffalo (bison in Buffalo).

    However, to make this clear, punctuation should be included:

    Buffalo buffalo, Buffalo buffalo buffalo, buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

    Rappaport explains it this way:

    Then, of course, you can make it more interesting by considering the buffalo in the Buffalo zoo, the Buffalo buffalo. And their peculiar way of buffaloing other Buffalo buffalo, so peculiar that, like the Tennessee waltz which you do by Tennessee waltzing, they Buffalo buffalo those other Buffalo buffalo:
    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

    TO see the original:
    LINGUIST List 3.175: Parsing challenges

    Moreover, *any* number of consecutive instances of the word buffalo is a grammatical English sentence. ("Buffalo!" - 'Go out and bully (people/things)!' - "Buffalo buffalo!" - 'Bully bison!'; "Buffalo Buffalo buffalo!" - 'Bully bison from the city of Buffalo!'; "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo." - 'Bison from Buffalo bully bison.'; and so on and on...)
    Last edited by JiveLad; 2nd-October-2008 at 09:23 PM.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Hmmm - maybe "fatuous" to the likes of you and me. To Professors at Universities - well they just love 'em (the one I quoted can be found in learned books (eg. see 'Text and Thinking' by Roger van der Velde)).
    They may be interesting as extremal cases, but I agree with Barry, they don't have much to do with practical grammar.

    I also note there's a self-referential issue: your answer is itself a quote from a discussion about grammar. If you allow that, things soon get silly. e.g. Punctuate:

    JiveLad had had had had had had had had had had had had where Stewart38 had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had the professor's approval.

    (Hope I didn't cut'n'paste wrong in writing that, but even if I did, you get the idea!)

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    They may be interesting as extremal cases, but I agree with Barry, they don't have much to do with practical grammar.

    I also note there's a self-referential issue: your answer is itself a quote from a discussion about grammar. If you allow that, things soon get silly. e.g. Punctuate:

    JiveLad had had had had had had had had had had had had where Stewart38 had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had the professor's approval.

    (Hope I didn't cut'n'paste wrong in writing that, but even if I did, you get the idea!)
    Yes - and the 'infinite' "had" and "buffalo" are quoted in the articles/forums on the web.

    Btw - what do you mean by "practical grammar"?

    Another one is :

    I needed a new sign for my fish and chips shop. A sign maker offered me his services and came up with a sign with the following written on it:

    FISHANDCHIPS

    So I said, ‘That’s wrong! There should be gaps between the fish and and and and and chips!!’

    With punctuation: ...gaps between the ‘fish’ and ‘and’, and [between the] ‘and’ and ‘chips’

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Btw - what do you mean by "practical grammar"?
    Basically, that language is used to communicate. The "had had ... had" construct may be grammatically correct, but it is not a practical way to communicate (other than in extremely specialised circumstances, such as in a gathering of linguists).

    As a more down-to-earth case: do you write "5 years experience" or "5 years' experience"? The second is actually correct, but in practice, virtually no-one objects to the first construct, and many will passionately object to the second. So it may well be more practical to use the former in most scenarios.

    On the other hand, most people seem to misuse 'loose' these days, but I'm not going to side with the majority on that one!

    So I said, ‘That’s wrong! There should be gaps between the fish and and and and and chips!!’
    That one seems to be a lot more well known - I think I saw it the first time when I was about seven.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    My point, which I probably didn't express very well, is that grammar style are used to communicate the writer's intention. It is therefore important to get it right.

    This exercise, giving a sentence or phrase the meaning of which is already unclear is the exact opposite. It is simply a test of - call it perpendicular thinking, and is related to the study of grammar only in the way that spread betting is related to football results.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    but I agree with Barry,
    Ah, Dave. You've made my day.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    My point, which I probably didn't express very well, is that grammar style are used to communicate the writer's intention. It is therefore important to get it right.

    This exercise, giving a sentence or phrase the meaning of which is already unclear is the exact opposite. It is simply a test of - call it perpendicular thinking, and is related to the study of grammar only in the way that spread betting is related to football results.
    So Barry, can you please explain what "grammar style" is? I am not sure if you meant "grammar and style" or "grammatical style" (whatever that is) - or indeed, something else. Maybe you are intentionally giving an example of why it is important to punctuate - or "get it right"? Perhaps you could elaborate for me. Or was it a bit 'perpendicular thinking' (that's a new one - perhaps you could tell me a bit more about what the heck that is??).

    Oh and btw:

    I had started making sense of your earlier post - and I had had to reread your first post, to double0-check it..

    Either way, Barry, where David Franklin had made sense you had made a hash of it. Sense had had Jive Lad's approval.

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Hmmm - maybe "fatuous" to the likes of you and me. To Professors at Universities - well they just love 'em (the one I quoted can be found in learned books (eg. see 'Text and Thinking' by Roger van der Velde)).

    (Stephen Pinkers 'The Language Instinct' is a well worth a read btw - if you haven't already - and includes the 'buffalo' one below).
    Moreover, *any* number of consecutive instances of the word buffalo is a grammatical English sentence. ("Buffalo!" - 'Go out and bully (people/things)!' - "Buffalo buffalo!" - 'Bully bison!'; "Buffalo Buffalo buffalo!" - 'Bully bison from the city of Buffalo!'; "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo." - 'Bison from Buffalo bully bison.'; and so on and on...)
    Anyway, isn't the best bit about English the fact that it's a democratic language that evolves with usage over time. Whilst the French have the Academic Francaise that dictates what is the correct french grammar construction; the english language is fluid, and dictionary editors continally monitor what is viewed as correct grammar construction. Hence it could be argued that DTS has the same influence as a professor in determining how the conventions of the english language become modified over time.

    (and yes, the buffalo buffalo sentence is fatuous - if there is a clearer alternative way of saying the same thing, that has to be the better way to do it!!!)

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    Re: Are you smarter than a 16 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    So Barry, can you please explain what "grammar style"
    Oops.

    The fact that I wrote 'grammar style ARE' is the clue. Changed the sentence around before posting and inadvertently deleted the '...AND...' between the two words.

    Sorry about that. Out of practice, I s'pose.

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