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Thread: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

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    Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    I was not sure where to post this, so created a new thread.

    As a dancer it is nice to have options.

    I first learnt locally at a LeRoc venue, but soon was going up to London as well, to catch Vicktor and Mike's classes.

    I loved the fact that Vicktor and Mike had a "different" style to the norm, and also loved the fact that even though I was an "out of town" guy... Linda remembered my name and made a special effort to ask me to dance

    So I have a lot of respect for the independants (where I first learnt) and the Ceroc "out there" people who taught Ceroc, with a bit of flair.

    I have done a lot of busking for the independants and have also done a bit of busking for Ceroc in Manchester (as I happened to be there at the time).

    So in my experience, Ceroc and the independants, both work hard towards getting new people into the dance.

    In a fluffy bunny place, when people take it one stage further, this is great, and others can do the same.

    One thing to remember is that Mike and Linda put on "other dance style" events many years ago.

    Before the MJ weekenders I was going to the Lindy Hop weekenders, as that was all there was.

    I think the recent backlash, is not that someone has put on new weekenders, but that they want to distroy the competition at the same time - giving dancers less choice (if the competition goes away).

    In my ideal world, Camber and Southport would have remained as independants doing weekenders and Ceroc would have found other places to create fab weekenders.

    I am sure, with thier database of dancers, Ceroc could have been sucessful in a new weekend venue without feeling the need to also take over what is already there.

    So I feel slightly sad that dancers miss out.

    I am sure Ceroc offers a really good weekender product, based on what was there and what they can do.

    My sadness is that, it would have been good to offer Ceroc as a quality product, in a different venue.

    Martin

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    for me the sadness is that this wont be left alone we have had nothing but whinges over the last few weeks
    whatever your politics towards the dance is i feel this now (it hshappend you wont change anything) should be left alone we can all then get on with our lives and start enjoying comming to the forum again
    WHY KEEP BRINGIG UP THE SAME OLD MOANS IN DIFFERENT THREADS??

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    for me the sadness is that this wont be left alone we have had nothing but whinges over the last few weeks
    whatever your politics towards the dance is i feel this now (it hshappend you wont change anything) should be left alone we can all then get on with our lives and start enjoying comming to the forum again
    WHY KEEP BRINGIG UP THE SAME OLD MOANS IN DIFFERENT THREADS??
    Because THEY like YOU are passionate about Modern Jive. The whole point of the forum is about forumites giving their different views on a large number of subjects and lets be honest CEROC taking over the Southport dates that JA had originally pencilled in before the new owners of Pontins took over is something to be debated.

    It may have been better that certain spokesmen for both sides had kept there opinions to the basic facts but this is a passionate business and it has got very heated on both sides.

    Lets hope that the weekender scene has not been saturated making it much more difficult to meet up with our dancing buddies.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    I agree to some extent that this has been discussed maybe as much as it can be on here. Though unfortunately it turned into personal comments, rumours and a lot of it went 'outside' - there actually wasn't that much actual debate along the lines I think Martin was trying to create here. But with feelings running high that's probably understandable.

    What people need to remember though, and it may come as a shock, is that this forum is not the be all and end all of the MJ scene. And while the subject may have quietened down on here, its very, very far from doing so out there in MJ world.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Just out of interest, what's the point of this thread?

    Seriously, I don't understand what the thread's about. There's no clear question(s) to answer, not even a clear opinion to debate.

    Martin, if you can clarify what input you're expecting a bit more, or at least I think it'd be helpful?

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I was not sure where to post this, so created a new thread.

    As a dancer it is nice to have options.

    I first learnt locally at a LeRoc venue, but soon was going up to London as well, to catch Vicktor and Mike's classes.

    I loved the fact that Vicktor and Mike had a "different" style to the norm, and also loved the fact that even though I was an "out of town" guy... Linda remembered my name and made a special effort to ask me to dance

    So I have a lot of respect for the independants (where I first learnt) and the Ceroc "out there" people who taught Ceroc, with a bit of flair.

    I have done a lot of busking for the independants and have also done a bit of busking for Ceroc in Manchester (as I happened to be there at the time).

    So in my experience, Ceroc and the independants, both work hard towards getting new people into the dance.


    Martin
    Just on a point of order, and as I got pulled up (incorrectly as it happens) for spelling on another thread, it is 'independent' not 'independant'.

    You can have 'dependant' - which is of course, different from 'dependent'.

    'Independant' is not, to my certain knowledge, a word. I stand to be humbly corrected if it is an acceptable Antipodean variant for example.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Just on a point of order, and as I got pulled up (incorrectly as it happens) for spelling on another thread, it is 'independent' not 'independant'.

    You can have 'dependant' - which is of course, different from 'dependent'.

    'Independant' is not, to my certain knowledge, a word. I stand to be humbly corrected if it is an acceptable Antipodean variant for example.
    Not to mention "distroy"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Just out of interest, what's the point of this thread?
    I think I've just stumbled upon the point of the thread...

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Not to mention "distroy"
    I think I've just stumbled upon the point of the thread...
    antipodean spelling mistakes????

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition



    Please, if we worried about spelling or grammar on the forum then many posts might be moderated into outer space never mind down under.

    Now I happen to wonder what the thread is meant to achieve, and from his other posts I don't think that Martin is trying to replay the recent story of Big Bad Wolf Ceroc against Red Riding Hood Independent.

    To answer what I think Martin is trying to get at it is regular business practice to create a similar product (copy) where a competitor is successful in something and every day I see companies creating whole strategies about how to destroy the competition. It might leave a bad taste in some of our mouths but such activities are commonplace in the harsh world outside the Forum.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post


    Please, if we worried about spelling or grammar on the forum then many posts might be moderated into outer space never mind down under.
    .
    On the whole, I agree - it's not a moderation question at all.

    For some key words - like 'independent', I think can be worth pointing out, that's all. Especially as there can be different meanings with words that have close spellings - eg. complement versus compliment is a common mistake I see - even in newspapers. Dependent vs dependant is another.

    Yesterday I was called a 'numpty' in a post by someone who thought I had made a spelling mistake (I had spelt the word 'mould' correctly as it happens). Crikey! I thought - getting called a 'numpty' even when your spelling is correct..... what is the forum coming to.............

    Typo's are something else - and we all make them.....

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    On the whole, I agree - it's not a moderation question at all.

    For some key words - like 'independent', I think can be worth pointing out, that's all. Especially as there can be different meanings with words that have close spellings - eg. complement versus compliment is a common mistake I see - even in newspapers. Dependent vs dependant is another.

    Yesterday I was called a 'numpty' in a post by someone who thought I had made a spelling mistake (I had spelt the word 'mould' correctly as it happens). Crikey! I thought - getting called a 'numpty' even when your spelling is correct..... what is the forum coming to.............

    Typo's are something else - and we all make them.....
    Jivelad - I agree completely. Less cheap scoring I say.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or distroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Jivelad - I agree completely. Less cheap scoring I say.
    People have different views on just about everything, language, dance and business are three perennials.

    Ceroc taking over the Southport weekends can be expected to be good for them in the short and medium term. The long term consequences may be bad, or even disasterous. The competition might copy those tactics, or bind together in fear. or make Ceroc's task harder in other ways.

    In dance some people care intensely about how it looks, whilst others are only concerned about how it feels. There are different ways to react when you get a Hapy Burthday card from your grandchild.

    Ceroc have "Troyed" Jive Addiction, sneaked into their city. They may indeed find that they dis-Troyed them instead, and the war will be won elsewhere.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Just out of interest, what's the point of this thread?

    Seriously, I don't understand what the thread's about. There's no clear question(s) to answer, not even a clear opinion to debate.

    Martin, if you can clarify what input you're expecting a bit more, or at least I think it'd be helpful?
    Well the point is...

    I wanted to put my opinion across and it did not fit neatly on one particular thread that was already there.

    If my opinion did not seem clear, it may be that I have no personal attacks or group attacks, and no "I only love this company" thoughts.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Well the point is...

    I wanted to put my opinion across and it did not fit neatly on one particular thread that was already there.

    If my opinion did not seem clear, it may be that I have no personal attacks or group attacks, and no "I only love this company" thoughts.
    If you as it seems have no opinion about this all you are doing is stirring up wounds that have been done to death on this forum

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news but
    THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE
    most on here come for a bit of bs and maybe find information that is real

    Sorry if i seem angry about this its just that a very close friend of mine at cerocmetro and member of this forum had a serious accident on wed night and tbh this thread just perpetuates wounds that really dont matter to the majority of dancers or people


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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    If you as it seems have no opinion about this all you are doing is stirring up wounds that have been done to death on this forum
    I do have an opinion, and I have tried to say it in calm and reasoned terms.


    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Sorry if i seem angry about this its just that a very close friend of mine at cerocmetro and member of this forum had a serious accident on wed night
    I do understand this and I hope he is ok. Being hit at 100 mph and having your neck in a brace is not good.


    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    and tbh this thread just perpetuates wounds that really dont matter to the majority of dancers or people
    I was not looking to open up wounds, just giving my opinion, and could not find a thread to put it on.

    So let me put it in laymans terms...


    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I was not sure where to post this, so created a new thread.
    I hope this is self explanitary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    As a dancer it is nice to have options.
    I like to enjoy what is on offer from whatever company.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I first learnt locally at a LeRoc venue, but soon was going up to London as well, to catch Vicktor and Mike's classes.

    I loved the fact that Vicktor and Mike had a "different" style to the norm, and also loved the fact that even though I was an "out of town" guy... Linda remembered my name and made a special effort to ask me to dance

    So I have a lot of respect for the independants (where I first learnt) and the Ceroc "out there" people who taught Ceroc, with a bit of flair.
    I have enjoyed dancing at many dance companies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I have done a lot of busking for the independants and have also done a bit of busking for Ceroc in Manchester (as I happened to be there at the time).

    So in my experience, Ceroc and the independants, both work hard towards getting new people into the dance.
    Respect for Ceroc bring new people to the dance scene, many other companies also do this... so please have respect for both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    In a fluffy bunny place, when people take it one stage further, this is great, and others can do the same.
    So someone has an idea to offer more.. enjoy the development and if you want, as a dance company, develop your company in the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    One thing to remember is that Mike and Linda put on "other dance style" events many years ago.

    Before the MJ weekenders I was going to the Lindy Hop weekenders, as that was all there was.
    Enjoy the fact that someone in the MJ world trumped up the cash, took the risk and started MJ weekenders.

    Do not think that noone was pro-active before, in intoducing other dance styles to MJ members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I think the recent backlash, is not that someone has put on new weekenders, but that they want to distroy the competition at the same time - giving dancers less choice (if the competition goes away).
    This is maybe the cause of discontent for a lot of the punters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    In my ideal world, Camber and Southport would have remained as independants doing weekenders and Ceroc would have found other places to create fab weekenders.
    My ideal world, but as Gerry said - could have diluted the dancers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I am sure, with thier database of dancers, Ceroc could have been sucessful in a new weekend venue without feeling the need to also take over what is already there.
    Could be, but reference back to Gerry - maybe a business choice was made, so that numbers stayed high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So I feel slightly sad that dancers miss out.
    I do, coz different people bring different stuff. Good to have a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I am sure Ceroc offers a really good weekender product, based on what was there and what they can do.
    Being nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    My sadness is that, it would have been good to offer Ceroc as a quality product, in a different venue.
    Does make me sad, that takeovers, rather than "great idea, let us do it as well" is not the case.


    Gerry, Lynn, Agente Secreto, bigbjiver - respect to your posts.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Well the point is...

    I wanted to put my opinion across and it did not fit neatly on one particular thread that was already there.

    If my opinion did not seem clear, it may be that I have no personal attacks or group attacks, and no "I only love this company" thoughts.
    Sure, but that mean there's not much we can discuss on this thread, look at how it's already descended into waffle about spullink and whatever... Oh well.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Sure, but that mean there's not much we can discuss on this thread,
    Funny how you've managed to post...twice... on a thread where there's nothing to discuss..

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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Sorry if i seem angry about this its just that a very close friend of mine at cerocmetro and member of this forum had a serious accident on wed night and tbh this thread just perpetuates wounds that really dont matter to the majority of dancers or people
    I'm very sorry to hear about your friend and I hope they make a good recovery, but don't really see how that is relevant to a business decision that has upset people?

    This isn't about 'wounds' - its not been a little 'spat' even though it may seem like that on here. I agree that its not worth discussing further on here, but that is because I don't think its helping anyone to do so. And I do think 'its happened, so lets move on' is a good approach.

    But it has changed how people view MJ organisations and in particular the weekender market. I think the biggest change is that people are now not so much thinking of 'Ceroc the dance' - perception has now shifted to thinking of 'MJ the dance, Ceroc an MJ business'.

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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    ... But it has changed how people view MJ organisations and in particular the weekender market. I think the biggest change is that people are now not so much thinking of 'Ceroc the dance' - perception has now shifted to thinking of 'MJ the dance, Ceroc an MJ business'.
    It has changed the perception for a new contingent of dancers. Old timers remember the franchisee revolts, ("The independents are revolting" era). Going further back I have seen it written that James Cronin ran his first class immediately after Michele Ange Lau's at the same venue.

    Business vs the dance is bad for business and for the dance.

    Football went through all of this, and the battles continue there. Without the formation of the Football Association or some other similar governing body the situation there would be so much worse.

    (Now I find myself wondering how the founders of the F.A. managed to form it. To them )

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    Re: Create a similar product - or destroy the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Sure, but that mean there's not much we can discuss on this thread, look at how it's already descended into waffle about spullink and whatever... Oh well.
    well thats entirely the fault of Martingold to be honest.

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