fantastic post!
Sorry Rocky, but with this fantastic idea it means I'll be booking for the xmas party.
I know you work really hard and have thanked you for it on many occasions. Please remember though, that if some of us don't happen to enjoy the music on a particular night we are not 'slagging you off' by mentioning it, we are giving our opinion and feedback.Essentially we will be doing exactly what we did in creating UTOPIA in the first place - moving from the mainstream and breaking new music as well as uncovering some overlooked gems. It does take time, and I know that music is such a subjective thing, that we will not be able to please everyone - but we are trying really, really hard!
You are very trying sometimes Rocky
Notice how I 'twisted' your words there
Seriously, thanks for sharing. Some good ideas in there (I did think it was a long time between workshop and freestyle for those attending both but now I understand why). The Colisseum really can become a great dancing venue and whilst Saturday night didn't quite light my fire (for various reasons) I am definitely looking forward to future events there.
Yes, sorry forgot to mention this. I think we are going to keep the change at midnight because overall the response to this was positive. I like that it makes the changeover an 'event' and we might even see if we can big it up a little more. I can understand that some people were confused at the very first one, but they'll soon get used to it.
Some good ideas Rocky 'cept you might want to consider:
1. Why are you creating a separate Blues room? To satisfy the needs of some who want Blues all night I guess. Well fine - except what it does is immediately create a division - and cliques. For most of the newbies and 'standard' dancers that is what they really do not like. It would be much better to just keep it as one room: one community: one experience. Please, please keep it like this. As you mention, the pre-12pm music was not the usual Ceroc fare - and that was great - providing different music - all it needs - as I think you point out is a few slower ones mixed in as you move towards midnight. If you start to build another room then the proposition becomes too complex - especially for newbies - and you get the situation (as many dancers do at say Berko - pop their head round the door - and think "hmm - couples and hotshots....". NO NO NO! It is just a recipe for cliques! That was a good feature about Saturday: relatively little cliquey-ness (my word).
(Apart from the above, of course, the bar area is now known - and would be expected - as well as the food - I know many people were eating before 12pm - and welcomed it - great! - Now that would go....).
Well - I hope you get my point - I am trying also to represent the non-forumites - and some of the less experienced dancers in this. The clique thing is a big issue. Don't let it happen - please...
And the more I think about it - the more it would 'spoil' the potential fantastic brand-ette you are creating. Making Utopia - and Twisted distinct but related is fine - but if Twisted is just Utopia (ie Blues all night - with a bit of 'other' music thrown in) then what is the difference? If I were your CMO - I would be asking you to look at the different customer segments and see how they are best served - and how the integrity of the brand lines are maintained............(but I'm not).
Please keep it pure. One more time. Keep 'em waiting.........
Last edited by JiveLad; 23rd-September-2008 at 09:47 PM.
I am with Jive Lad on this. A seperate Blues room IMHO would segregate dancers into a them and us situation.
IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT.
See when I read Rocky's reply I thought 'yes brilliant idea' and like Cru thought that change would make the Christmas do a definite for me.
But I wasn't at Twisted and I can appreciate that those that were enjoyed the one room/two events feel.
Maybe the answer is to tweak the music in the first part? I dunno.
Great post by Rocky though. It is very encouraging to see organisers listening and responding to feedback.
Yes: 2 events: one room: one experience: one community.....there has to be a 'going through this together' feeling - not a "yeah I missed out on 3 great tracks while I was in the Blues room" - "really - oh shame - you should have been in here...it was great....".
You're right - tweaking the first part is the key: that was the feedback from that I heard most - and it is a tweak - so not much - and ensuring it is not the usual Ceroc tracks (that is the key - so no 'Stuck on you' please).
And yes - as I mentioned in another thread - it is great when organisers genuinely listen to - and act on feedback.
It's a difficult one JL because we need to give value for money. Many UTOPIAN's, it appears from the feedback, really were just waiting for the clock to hit midnight to get their fix - and on that basis the cost for 2 hours of freestyle was too expensive.
Adding the seperate Blues/COZ room therefore gives them a reason to come earlier and provides better value for money. The additional DJ also adds diversity and I do believe that a fair number of dancers will move between the rooms - I always do at a two room event, and in this venue the rooms are only seperated by a corridor. The other aspect is that the proposed new area does have two distinct floors: The main central area that covers the length and the square area by the bar. Whilst we have no control over perceived 'hotshottery' we do believe that this will enable newbies to experience the seperate room without feeling too intimidated. And you have to admit that many people's first foray into the Blues experience is at weekenders where people are given the opportunity of trying it whilst still having the comfort of the main room to go back to.
As regards the food service there are two aspects to this; firstly, for the caterer, it is better to staff and open for 2 hours than to staff and serve all night. That of course would not be productive if they lost sales: So secondly, the other issue is one of volume of sales, and I can say that I went into this area on a number occasions during the course of the evening and IMO the food service was not really that busy before midnight. In any event, if people can't eat before midnight they will just put it off until later on when they can, so it is expected that overall food sales will stay the same, but will just be concentrated into a shorter period of time - this, IMO, is a more effecient system for all concerned.
Lastly, the additional area gives us the ability to increase numbers a little. The event had 350 attendees and of course there is always a natural fall off towards the end of the evening. 350 was comfortable in the main room so the only way to keep numbers up to capacity towards the end of the evening is to simply book more people. We wouldn't want to compromise the main room space so the only other way to do that is to increase capacity via another area that will feed into the main auditorium later. Thank goodness we didn't have the 500 the venue (and the floor dimensions) seemed to suggest!
I understand your concerns, but again the only way we'll know for sure if a change works or not is to implement it and see what happens. But in any event it may be all irrelevant if we can't get agreement from all the parties concerned. I promise you there is method to everything we've proposed!
Last edited by Rocky; 24th-September-2008 at 01:31 AM.
The points you make just don't add up Rocky. I feel it is important to keep this brand distinct from Utopia (but related). It is now going to become just another Utopia evening for some people (good though that might be). The people who have been asking me/texting me: "how was Twisted?" (lots of people talking about it in the St. Albans area) are anticipating that it is different from a Utopia or a 'Ceroc with a Blues room night'. And..........hmmm - what do I say now? I was so positive about the concept - now I am not so sure - and the main reason is back to the division of the dance community through the extra room.
I could take your points 1 by 1 - for example:
You say that 2 hours of Utopia music for the "Utopians" is not value. Well you have a number of options:
1. Increase the amount of Blues music pre the switch (already discussed)
2. Start the switch earlier (I think you already said the whole evening would start earlier - so you could start the switch earlier - it doesn't have to be midnight - Cinderella is not attending....)
3. Give a small discount to those hard-up die-hard Utopians
What about the value for non-Utopians? If you are going to have a Blues room - then why not just continue it through the night and let the non-utopians (and there were many) get their value as well - by continuing the main room with 'Standard' music? (This is not an option I would like).
As you say, people would move between the 2 rooms. Yes - of course they would. And this is my point: for Twisted, it dilutes the experience. And this is the rub: in the main room, pre-switch, you are playing more unusual, non-Ceroc - and slightly challenging music - so that is the reason to be there - and to share that experience across the dance community. If a third of the dancers have gone off to hear their usual Utopia tracks in another room - then you have immediately lost that.
As regards the food - and particularly if you are going to open earlier, then the demand will be....earlier. At most freestyles (Cheshunt, Berko, St. Albans) the food, cakes, donuts....etc are provided at 11pm - and this is when people are getting hungry and the food gets hoovered up. Bear in mind at those events, that most people probaby started dancing at 9ish - so that is just 2 hours after. If you are starting even earlier, then that would give even more importance to ensuring food is available at the 11pm time. My recommendation would be to have food from (say 10:30 - 12:30) - and make that clear to everyone beforehand. That will satisfy your 2 hour window for caterers. Of course you could make it 10:30 to 1 - even better. Either way having to wait till say 12:30 for yer chips is too late! People were munching way before then on Saturday. Some (like me) did not even discover there was food until someone told me later - which is why is might not have been as busy as they would like earlier.
The increase in numbers - and the fall off.....hmmm - well......that is down to the experience and the music. Of course some people may have to leave for other reasons (sleep, babysitters.....etc) - not sure if that is what you mean. In terms of numbers and the 'feel' on the floor pre-switch - I would say it was comfortable - another 50 would not have been a problem - at least compared to say Berko.........
I have another idea of what you could do in the 2nd room which would be of value to newbies and really help things along: have a Blues try out area. I envisage say 2 or 3 taxi-esque people who would be there to talk people through and show/demonstrate thru the evening - including allowing punters to try it out with an experienced dancer. This would provide a risk free environment for newbies - and create much more value than popping your head round and seeing loads of hotshots in action. Well, that's just an idea.
As you can see, I feel strongly about it - and the main point is have one shared experience together - and that develops the Twisted brand. I think it will bring more people into the Utopia 'fold'.
All Sounds Great - Shame it can't be a more regular thing monthly or Bi-Monthly?
One of the best venues I have been too, great music, great crowd and nice to have some proper refreshments, shame they ran out of Sour Cream for the wedges
For me it is not the financial aspect but I would prefer the Utopia part of the evening to start earlier. The up tempo part of the evening lasted far longer than the Utopia. If you are starting the evening earlier even more reason to start the Utopia section earlier. My real enjoyment of the evening started at 12:00 and those 2 hours just flew by
It's a shame we couldn't get to this one. It sounds like it was a hell of a night. Thanks for posting an organiser's point of view on the night Dave.
Great to see you guys had a blast. Switching the lights over to give a two room feel to a one room event is a genius idea. From what I can see I'm not the only one who thinks so
Congratulations on yet another successful night Rocky et al
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