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Thread: TWISTED the aftermath

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    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    fantastic post!


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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    OK, so here is what we are proposing as amendments.


    Thanks again for all your feedback.

    David
    Dave
    Thankyou for your prompt response / feed back concerning Twisted, its great that you guys are pushing the boundaries and like good businesmen and women listening to your punters.


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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    6.) Whilst the uptempo freestyle is taking place in the main room we are proposing to close the main bar in the side room and to instead utilize the ancillary small bar to the side. This gives over the main bar and seating area, with incorporated wooden floors, to be used as a Blues Lounge with possible guest DJ from say 9pm to Midnight. During this time the food service area will be closed.
    We believe that with the extended opening times and the additional areas and rooms, people will have an improved experience at future TWISTED events. For those just coming for the uptempo freestyle they get more, whilst also having the ability to venture into the Blues Lounge if they wish. For those hardened UTOPIANs, they get more slower music and a greater choice within that, and again the ability to crossover into the main room as they wish. All in all with think this offers greater value for money and also uses more of what everyone agrees is a fantastic venue.
    Sorry Rocky, but with this fantastic idea it means I'll be booking for the xmas party.

    Essentially we will be doing exactly what we did in creating UTOPIA in the first place - moving from the mainstream and breaking new music as well as uncovering some overlooked gems. It does take time, and I know that music is such a subjective thing, that we will not be able to please everyone - but we are trying really, really hard!
    I know you work really hard and have thanked you for it on many occasions. Please remember though, that if some of us don't happen to enjoy the music on a particular night we are not 'slagging you off' by mentioning it, we are giving our opinion and feedback.

  4. #44
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    we are trying


    You are very trying sometimes Rocky

    Notice how I 'twisted' your words there

    Seriously, thanks for sharing. Some good ideas in there (I did think it was a long time between workshop and freestyle for those attending both but now I understand why). The Colisseum really can become a great dancing venue and whilst Saturday night didn't quite light my fire (for various reasons) I am definitely looking forward to future events there.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I know you work really hard and have thanked you for it on many occasions. Please remember though, that if some of us don't happen to enjoy the music on a particular night we are not 'slagging you off' by mentioning it, we are giving our opinion and feedback.


    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Seriously, thanks for sharing. Some good ideas in there (I did think it was a long time between workshop and freestyle for those attending both but now I understand why). The Colisseum really can become a great dancing venue and whilst Saturday night didn't quite light my fire (for various reasons) I am definitely looking forward to future events there.



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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgious dancer View Post

    I personally would have preferred the transistion to be done a little differently, for me I feel that it would have worked better if the tempo had been gradually reduced say over a half hour period from 11.30 till 12.
    Just wanted to say, in my humble opinion, I loved the instant change of mood on the strike of midnight, I thought it was quite dramatic

  7. #47
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Jay View Post
    Just wanted to say, in my humble opinion, I loved the instant change of mood on the strike of midnight, I thought it was quite dramatic
    Yes, sorry forgot to mention this. I think we are going to keep the change at midnight because overall the response to this was positive. I like that it makes the changeover an 'event' and we might even see if we can big it up a little more. I can understand that some people were confused at the very first one, but they'll soon get used to it.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I think we are going to keep the change at midnight because overall the response to this was positive. I like that it makes the changeover an 'event' and we might even see if we can big it up a little more
    Pleased to hear it..the more you big it up the better....I love a bit of the 'wow' factor

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    fantastic post!

    Indeed. If the blues room idea comes off this would be fantastic. Really appreciated you sharing these thoughts Rocky.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Some good ideas Rocky 'cept you might want to consider:

    1. Why are you creating a separate Blues room? To satisfy the needs of some who want Blues all night I guess. Well fine - except what it does is immediately create a division - and cliques. For most of the newbies and 'standard' dancers that is what they really do not like. It would be much better to just keep it as one room: one community: one experience. Please, please keep it like this. As you mention, the pre-12pm music was not the usual Ceroc fare - and that was great - providing different music - all it needs - as I think you point out is a few slower ones mixed in as you move towards midnight. If you start to build another room then the proposition becomes too complex - especially for newbies - and you get the situation (as many dancers do at say Berko - pop their head round the door - and think "hmm - couples and hotshots....". NO NO NO! It is just a recipe for cliques! That was a good feature about Saturday: relatively little cliquey-ness (my word).
    (Apart from the above, of course, the bar area is now known - and would be expected - as well as the food - I know many people were eating before 12pm - and welcomed it - great! - Now that would go....).

    Well - I hope you get my point - I am trying also to represent the non-forumites - and some of the less experienced dancers in this. The clique thing is a big issue. Don't let it happen - please...

    And the more I think about it - the more it would 'spoil' the potential fantastic brand-ette you are creating. Making Utopia - and Twisted distinct but related is fine - but if Twisted is just Utopia (ie Blues all night - with a bit of 'other' music thrown in) then what is the difference? If I were your CMO - I would be asking you to look at the different customer segments and see how they are best served - and how the integrity of the brand lines are maintained............(but I'm not).

    Please keep it pure. One more time. Keep 'em waiting.........
    Last edited by JiveLad; 23rd-September-2008 at 09:47 PM.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    I am with Jive Lad on this. A seperate Blues room IMHO would segregate dancers into a them and us situation.

    IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    See when I read Rocky's reply I thought 'yes brilliant idea' and like Cru thought that change would make the Christmas do a definite for me.

    But I wasn't at Twisted and I can appreciate that those that were enjoyed the one room/two events feel.

    Maybe the answer is to tweak the music in the first part? I dunno.

    Great post by Rocky though. It is very encouraging to see organisers listening and responding to feedback.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    See when I read Rocky's reply I thought 'yes brilliant idea' and like Cru thought that change would make the Christmas do a definite for me.

    But I wasn't at Twisted and I can appreciate that those that were enjoyed the one room/two events feel.

    Maybe the answer is to tweak the music in the first part? I dunno.

    Great post by Rocky though. It is very encouraging to see organisers listening and responding to feedback.
    Yes: 2 events: one room: one experience: one community.....there has to be a 'going through this together' feeling - not a "yeah I missed out on 3 great tracks while I was in the Blues room" - "really - oh shame - you should have been in here...it was great....".

    You're right - tweaking the first part is the key: that was the feedback from that I heard most - and it is a tweak - so not much - and ensuring it is not the usual Ceroc tracks (that is the key - so no 'Stuck on you' please).

    And yes - as I mentioned in another thread - it is great when organisers genuinely listen to - and act on feedback.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    you get the situation (as many dancers do at say Berko - pop their head round the door - and think "hmm - couples and hotshots....". NO NO NO!
    Not enough IMO Its far too busy in there nowadays
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  15. #55
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    ....snip....
    It's a difficult one JL because we need to give value for money. Many UTOPIAN's, it appears from the feedback, really were just waiting for the clock to hit midnight to get their fix - and on that basis the cost for 2 hours of freestyle was too expensive.

    Adding the seperate Blues/COZ room therefore gives them a reason to come earlier and provides better value for money. The additional DJ also adds diversity and I do believe that a fair number of dancers will move between the rooms - I always do at a two room event, and in this venue the rooms are only seperated by a corridor. The other aspect is that the proposed new area does have two distinct floors: The main central area that covers the length and the square area by the bar. Whilst we have no control over perceived 'hotshottery' we do believe that this will enable newbies to experience the seperate room without feeling too intimidated. And you have to admit that many people's first foray into the Blues experience is at weekenders where people are given the opportunity of trying it whilst still having the comfort of the main room to go back to.

    As regards the food service there are two aspects to this; firstly, for the caterer, it is better to staff and open for 2 hours than to staff and serve all night. That of course would not be productive if they lost sales: So secondly, the other issue is one of volume of sales, and I can say that I went into this area on a number occasions during the course of the evening and IMO the food service was not really that busy before midnight. In any event, if people can't eat before midnight they will just put it off until later on when they can, so it is expected that overall food sales will stay the same, but will just be concentrated into a shorter period of time - this, IMO, is a more effecient system for all concerned.

    Lastly, the additional area gives us the ability to increase numbers a little. The event had 350 attendees and of course there is always a natural fall off towards the end of the evening. 350 was comfortable in the main room so the only way to keep numbers up to capacity towards the end of the evening is to simply book more people. We wouldn't want to compromise the main room space so the only other way to do that is to increase capacity via another area that will feed into the main auditorium later. Thank goodness we didn't have the 500 the venue (and the floor dimensions) seemed to suggest!

    I understand your concerns, but again the only way we'll know for sure if a change works or not is to implement it and see what happens. But in any event it may be all irrelevant if we can't get agreement from all the parties concerned. I promise you there is method to everything we've proposed!
    Last edited by Rocky; 24th-September-2008 at 01:31 AM.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's a difficult one JL because we need to give value for money. Many UTOPIAN's, it appears from the feedback, really were just waiting for the clock to hit midnight to get their fix - and on that basis the cost for 2 hours of freestyle was too expensive.

    Adding the seperate Blues/COZ room therefore gives them a reason to come earlier and provides better value for money. The additional DJ also adds diversity and I do believe that a fair number of dancers will move between the rooms - I always do at a two room event, and in this venue the rooms are only seperated by a corridor. The other aspect is that the proposed new area does have two distinct floors: The main central area that covers the length and the square area by the bar. Whilst we have no control over perceived 'hotshottery' we do believe that this will enable newbies to experience the seperate room without feeling too intimidated. And you have to admit that many people's first foray into the Blues experience is at weekenders where people are given the opportunity of trying it whilst still having the comfort of the main room to go back to.

    As regards the food service there are two aspects to this; firstly, for the caterer, it is better to staff and open for 2 hours than to staff and serve all night. That of course would not be productive if they lost sales: So secondly, the other issue is one of volume of sales, and I can say that I went into this area on a number occasions during the course of the evening and IMO the food service was not really that busy before midnight. In any event, if people can't eat before midnight they will just put it off until later on when they can, so it is expected that overall food sales will stay the same, but will just be concentrated into a shorter period of time - this, IMO, is a more effecient system for all concerned.

    Lastly, the additional area gives us the ability to increase numbers a little. The event had 350 attendees and of course there is always a natural fall off towards the end of the evening. 350 was comfortable in the main room so the only way to keep numbers up to capacity towards the end of the evening is to simply book more people. We wouldn't want to compromise the main room space so the only other way to do that is to increase capacity via another area that will feed into the main auditorium later. Thank goodness we didn't have the 500 the venue (and the floor dimensions) seemed to suggest!

    I understand your concerns, but again the only way we'll know for sure if a change works or not is to implement it and see what happens. But in any event it may be all irrelevant if we can't get agreement from all the parties concerned. I promise you there is method to everything we've proposed!
    The points you make just don't add up Rocky. I feel it is important to keep this brand distinct from Utopia (but related). It is now going to become just another Utopia evening for some people (good though that might be). The people who have been asking me/texting me: "how was Twisted?" (lots of people talking about it in the St. Albans area) are anticipating that it is different from a Utopia or a 'Ceroc with a Blues room night'. And..........hmmm - what do I say now? I was so positive about the concept - now I am not so sure - and the main reason is back to the division of the dance community through the extra room.

    I could take your points 1 by 1 - for example:

    You say that 2 hours of Utopia music for the "Utopians" is not value. Well you have a number of options:
    1. Increase the amount of Blues music pre the switch (already discussed)
    2. Start the switch earlier (I think you already said the whole evening would start earlier - so you could start the switch earlier - it doesn't have to be midnight - Cinderella is not attending....)
    3. Give a small discount to those hard-up die-hard Utopians

    What about the value for non-Utopians? If you are going to have a Blues room - then why not just continue it through the night and let the non-utopians (and there were many) get their value as well - by continuing the main room with 'Standard' music? (This is not an option I would like).

    As you say, people would move between the 2 rooms. Yes - of course they would. And this is my point: for Twisted, it dilutes the experience. And this is the rub: in the main room, pre-switch, you are playing more unusual, non-Ceroc - and slightly challenging music - so that is the reason to be there - and to share that experience across the dance community. If a third of the dancers have gone off to hear their usual Utopia tracks in another room - then you have immediately lost that.

    As regards the food - and particularly if you are going to open earlier, then the demand will be....earlier. At most freestyles (Cheshunt, Berko, St. Albans) the food, cakes, donuts....etc are provided at 11pm - and this is when people are getting hungry and the food gets hoovered up. Bear in mind at those events, that most people probaby started dancing at 9ish - so that is just 2 hours after. If you are starting even earlier, then that would give even more importance to ensuring food is available at the 11pm time. My recommendation would be to have food from (say 10:30 - 12:30) - and make that clear to everyone beforehand. That will satisfy your 2 hour window for caterers. Of course you could make it 10:30 to 1 - even better. Either way having to wait till say 12:30 for yer chips is too late! People were munching way before then on Saturday. Some (like me) did not even discover there was food until someone told me later - which is why is might not have been as busy as they would like earlier.

    The increase in numbers - and the fall off.....hmmm - well......that is down to the experience and the music. Of course some people may have to leave for other reasons (sleep, babysitters.....etc) - not sure if that is what you mean. In terms of numbers and the 'feel' on the floor pre-switch - I would say it was comfortable - another 50 would not have been a problem - at least compared to say Berko.........

    I have another idea of what you could do in the 2nd room which would be of value to newbies and really help things along: have a Blues try out area. I envisage say 2 or 3 taxi-esque people who would be there to talk people through and show/demonstrate thru the evening - including allowing punters to try it out with an experienced dancer. This would provide a risk free environment for newbies - and create much more value than popping your head round and seeing loads of hotshots in action. Well, that's just an idea.

    As you can see, I feel strongly about it - and the main point is have one shared experience together - and that develops the Twisted brand. I think it will bring more people into the Utopia 'fold'.

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    All Sounds Great - Shame it can't be a more regular thing monthly or Bi-Monthly?
    One of the best venues I have been too, great music, great crowd and nice to have some proper refreshments, shame they ran out of Sour Cream for the wedges

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    die-hard Utopians
    Bruce Willis stopped attending a while back, too upset by Rocky's anti-vest sentiments

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    Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's a difficult one JL because we need to give value for money. Many UTOPIAN's, it appears from the feedback, really were just waiting for the clock to hit midnight to get their fix - and on that basis the cost for 2 hours of freestyle was too expensive
    For me it is not the financial aspect but I would prefer the Utopia part of the evening to start earlier. The up tempo part of the evening lasted far longer than the Utopia. If you are starting the evening earlier even more reason to start the Utopia section earlier. My real enjoyment of the evening started at 12:00 and those 2 hours just flew by

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    Cool Re: TWISTED the aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Thanks to everyone for their feedback. I think most people understand that this was a learning experience for us and I do think we have created a good foundation to build on.

    The whole concept was to encourage more people who only like main room music to try the full, slower UTOPIA experience - and likewise we also hoped to give a more varied evening to our usual UTOPIANs, many of whom I know still love to shake it a little.

    I'm sure you can imagine that with all that to bear in mind the DJ logistics were a nightmare! Vince, Val and me spent over 2 weeks going backwards and forwards with tracks and concepts; should we play mostly known freestyle tracks, or should we try to encompass a much broader concept? Should we remain all up-tempo for the first section, or should we go for more light and shade? In the UTOPIA section, should we lighten the difficulty of tracks so that we don't frighten newbies we've been aiming to encourage too much, or should we throw them in at the deep end?

    And then as regards structure; we were uncertain about start times for both the workshop and the freestyle, we were uncertain about whether to include a class or not, and we were also uncertain about the length of each section within the TWISTED format. We made decisons on all of these and now we have experienced an actual event, like many of you, we can see that it all needs tweaking a little.

    We'll be meeting this week and hopefully by the end of the week will be able to tell you about all the changes we will be making.

    Just in the meantime: As regards the next event at The Colosseum in Dec, it is currently undecided on whether it will be a full UTOPIA Xmas night or still have some element of TWISTED - but we will let everyone know the decision very soon. Also, the NYE event will not be run by UTOPIA, but will be run by the same team who gave you The Black & White Ball and is, in effect, the Ashtons replacement (I don't know where the cost of £40 a ticket came from as a price hasn't been decided yet).

    Thanks again, and we're glad so many of you enjoyed it and enjoyed the new venue. The venue managers are fantastic and as everyone said the bar was great and so was the food.

    Just as a final point: We all felt it was important to announce the change at midnight and to explain about what was going to happen to anyone who had never been to one of our events. The announcement was also a logistical segue to allow all the lights to change over, as some weren't on the DMX panel. The announcement was made over a small piece of atmospheric music before the first track began, and not over the track itself, and lasted precisely 56 secs. Given that, I do think this comment is a little harsh.. 'The woman I was dancing with said something like "Play the *** music!!"
    It's a shame we couldn't get to this one. It sounds like it was a hell of a night. Thanks for posting an organiser's point of view on the night Dave.

    Great to see you guys had a blast. Switching the lights over to give a two room feel to a one room event is a genius idea. From what I can see I'm not the only one who thinks so

    Congratulations on yet another successful night Rocky et al

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