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Thread: Ceroc or not

  1. #1

    Ceroc or not

    Simple thread (hope this is ok Franck)
    What is best Ceroc or independents

    Not looking to bad mouth organisations or venues here
    in the south Ceroc are not established in Scotland it seems to be 90% Ceroc but elsewhere there is an even mix
    Is the Ceroc formula the best or does Hipsters or Dorking halls win the contest.

    Does Ceroc have better teachers but iffy music
    Is Leroc full of average dancers that should not be teaching.

    What do you think about organisers who do not teach or bring in new dancers but put dances on to cash in (my personal hate)

    I'm sure there must be a heated discussion hidden in here somewhere.

  2. #2
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    I'm sure there must be a heated discussion hidden in here somewhere.
    Just one?

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    Simple thread (hope this is ok Franck)
    What is best Ceroc or independentshate)
    Of course it's fine LL

    From my perspective (admittedly biased) I think that Ceroc is best!

    The strength and standards provided by a larger organization that cares about quality of teaching and bringing in new members and focusing on all dancers, ie not just the 'elite hotshots', but beginners, intermediate and in the last couple of years, on the more advanced needs too, makes a huge difference.
    Of course, there are great independents out there, and there are some poor Ceroc teachers / franchisees, but as a large organization, Ceroc can root out, or re-train those who fall below par, what can you do with the really bad independents out there who either put off many potential dancers, or turn out dancers that at best can't dance, and at worse are dangerous (aerials anyone?).

    One of the defining factors is that most of the successful independents (and budding organizations) were once trained by Ceroc.
    The training is the key, not just on how to dance and how to teach, but crucially, on how to encourage everyone to improve.

    Ceroc training is the best and is constantly improving, and judging by the last few meetings of Ceroc franchisees since Mike Ellard took over the reins, the future is very promising!

    Franck.

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    Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    snipped
    What is best Ceroc or independents?

    Is the Ceroc formula the best?

    What do you think about organisers who do not teach or bring in new dancers but put dances on to cash in (my personal hate)
    Ceroc is the big success story, the foundation for Modern Jive in this country. Some of the larger independents built themselves as Ceroc franchises, then went their own way. I suspect that most of them are still very close to Ceroc formula. I have not seen or heard of a "better" formula. I would like to hear of contenders.

    Hipsters could not exist without Ceroc. In the very long run the dance may go the way of ballroom dancing, becoming less popular and more technical and elitist. Hipsters may be the way of the future, but it is a may be a cul-de-sac with fewer and fewer better and better dancers, until the rot sets in and it dies because the roots are dead.

    Organisers who meet a need are to be welcomed. I regard a normal dance class as a light snack. I usually do not want to finish at the end of a freestyle night. I have been known to go home half an hour before the end after 11 1/2 hours at the championships.

  5. #5

    Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Franck
    Of course it's fine LL

    From my perspective (admittedly biased) I think that Ceroc is best!

    The strength and standards provided by a larger organization that cares about quality of teaching and bringing in new members and focusing on all dancers, ie not just the 'elite hotshots', but beginners, intermediate and in the last couple of years, on the more advanced needs too, makes a huge difference.
    Of course, there are great independents out there, and there are some poor Ceroc teachers / franchisees, but as a large organization, Ceroc can root out, or re-train those who fall below par, what can you do with the really bad independents out there who either put off many potential dancers, or turn out dancers that at best can't dance, and at worse are dangerous (aerials anyone?).

    One of the defining factors is that most of the successful independents (and budding organizations) were once trained by Ceroc.
    The training is the key, not just on how to dance and how to teach, but crucially, on how to encourage everyone to improve.

    Ceroc training is the best and is constantly improving, and judging by the last few meetings of Ceroc franchisees since Mike Ellard took over the reins, the future is very promising!

    Franck.
    I agree Ceroc is the best for teaching and getting 'bums on seats'.
    but
    I teach at Camber approx 900 in the class, I DJ at Camber, Hipsters, MJC, RB, BB, Blacpool champs etc. etc. yet I cannot (officialy) DJ or Teach for ceroc as a freelance.
    The only freelance teachers used by Ceroc seem to be the elite few
    I have contated central office a number of times with regard to working for Ceroc and may get a reply one day.

    Is Ceroc to blinkered, do events/venues like Camber or Hipsters prosper because Ceroc is failing the top end of the dance market.

    I am a member of the Leroc federation and boy do they need a wake up call, but because it does not have the ceroc control their meandering continues.
    So I see both sides, I dont like the bully tactics Ceroc (and others) seem to adopt, I am sure others experience this approach.
    peter

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    Is Ceroc to blinkered, do events/venues like Camber or Hipsters prosper because Ceroc is failing the top end of the dance market.
    Ceroc is not failing the top end of the market, Ceroc more or less created a market at the top end, and while this accusation might have been true 2/3 years ago, it certainly isn't today. A lot has been done already, with top events, workshops, the Jivemasters etc... and more is planned. The blinkers are off and soon, everyone will benefit.

    Watch this space

    Franck.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by bigdjiver
    Hipsters could not exist without Ceroc.
    One might argue that Ceroc could not exist with Hipsters To explain myself (if I can) Ceroc has always been focused as a business proposition around dancer with 0 to 2 years experience. The formula of teaching is also based round that. What I've seen time and time again is that dancers hit the ceiling of what Ceroc can offer then go off to do Lindy or Salsa or simply give up. The advent of the new breed of 'advanced' teachers and more sophisticated venues is a symbiotic relationship.

    I don’t think that Ceroc should try to cater for this top end of the market ... its what its built up for and, being brutally frank (no pun), its teachers aren’t trained to be able to cope. I hope I'm not insulting the CTA graduates (I'm one myself) when I say that the majority would possibly struggle to teach at the advanced level in the way that Nigel, Viktor and Amir do. And YES ... I know there are Ceroc teachers who are near the A list standard. .. but I would submit that they are exception rather than the rule.

    As a counter pint ... if you look at any other provider of dance tuition ... I would say with the exception of Hipsters, overall Ceroc tends to win hands down .... but that is speaking with total ignorance of the very strong LeRoc and MoJive presence down South so I'm willing to be proven wrong.


    Personal view entirely.

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc or not - sorry, long

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    What is best Ceroc or independents
    I've heard it suggested that Ceroc caters for the majority who just want to dance a bit, chat with friends, learn a couple of moves and nothing more.

    But I think that assumption needs challenging...

    ... for example, I've spoken to many Cerocers over the years who express frustration at the way they learn all these moves but can't remember any of them. Many lady Cerocers express frustration that they do all these moves in the class, but then no one ever dances them.

    ... it is the Ceroc venues that have the more challenging classes that seem to be the busiest. It might be argued that it's because it attracts the better dancers - but (a) many of the very good dancers don't go to the classes, and (b) how did the better dancers get that way? Not by only learning easy moves, I bet.

    I used to taxi at Chiswick, a short-lived Ceroc venue. The teaching was Ok, great location, nice floor, but it never took off. And the one thing that I noticed about it was that the intermediate class was always only a tiny bit harder than the beginners class.

    This was always justified by the desire to keep people, that if it was too hard they'd leave. On the contrary, I say: not hard enough, no challenge, no attracting good dancers, and in particular, nothing there for the beginners / early intermediates to aspire to. Freestyle was always dreadful, nothing eye-catching, nothing inspiring.

    So people went elsewhere, and the venue closed.

    It would cost very little in Ceroc classes to teach a little more about lead and follow, musicality, to structure the intermediate routine to contain at least one reasonably difficult move that illustrates something of these. A little exercise, for example, to establish resistance in the arms every couple of beginners classes, or an encouragement to listen for the breaks in the intermediates - maybe incorporated into the routine.

    These things wouldn't have an immediate effect, but much could be transformed over time.

    Chris

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

    So I see both sides, I dont like the bully tactics Ceroc (and others) seem to adopt, I am sure others experience this approach.
    peter
    Sorry LL but I have to take exception to the 'bully boy' tactics comment. I agree that Ceroc are very selective about their teacher profile (25-28, good looking, slim build, ladies preferably shapely) but its a commondity production line that works. I can also understand why Ceroc is keen to keep to its own teachers .. and restrict their teachers teaching elsewhere ... thats just good business sense.

    've come across more dubious practies by non-Cefoc organisations than by Ceroc ... so I think you may be being unfair. At the end of the day ... I've not come across Ceroc deliberately trying to close another down ... OK .. they occaisonaly ban instructors from competing clubs but I think that isdecreasing ... I only know of one other Blitz instructor who has been banned ... and my banning was only based on a personal rift rather than a 'Ceroc' directive.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Gus
    To explain myself (if I can) Ceroc has always been focused as a business proposition around dancer with 0 to 2 years experience. The formula of teaching is also based round that.
    As I mentioned already, this is true, but only up to a point. Most people take around 2 years to become very good dancers (some take a lot less, and many give up before that for other reasons as we don't force people to keep learning )
    With the overall success of Ceroc and other organizations, the market has grown to the point where there are now enough very good dancers to start a class catering for them mostly (at least in London, and soon the rest of the UK).
    Only now is it realistic for Ceroc to consider providing more challenging classes / workshops / events... 2/3 years ago, only half a dozen people would have turned up.
    I don’t think that Ceroc should try to cater for this top end of the market ... its what its built up for and, being brutally frank (no pun), its teachers aren’t trained to be able to cope. I hope I'm not insulting the CTA graduates (I'm one myself) when I say that the majority would possibly struggle to teach at the advanced level in the way that Nigel, Viktor and Amir do. And YES ... I know there are Ceroc teachers who are near the A list standard. .. but I would submit that they are exception rather than the rule.
    I disagree, there are many incredible dancers and brilliant teachers in the C.T.A. all they need is the framework and extra training to develop in what I believe will put the current 'stars' to shame... This might be controversial, but most of the 'hotshot' teachers out there are still making it up as they go along, providing brilliant classes / concepts but also poor ones as they experiment. I believe that with training, support and the right infrastructure / framework, Ceroc could become the top all round provider from Beginners to Advanced and beyond!

    Franck.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Ceroc or not - sorry, long

    Originally posted by ChrisA
    I used to taxi at Chiswick, a short-lived Ceroc venue. The teaching was Ok, great location, nice floor, but it never took off. And the one thing that I noticed about it was that the intermediate class was always only a tiny bit harder than the beginners class.

    This was always justified by the desire to keep people, that if it was too hard they'd leave. On the contrary, I say: not hard enough, no challenge, no attracting good dancers, and in particular, nothing there for the beginners / early intermediates to aspire to. Freestyle was always dreadful, nothing eye-catching, nothing inspiring.

    So people went elsewhere, and the venue closed.
    One thing I have learnt over the last 11 years of running Ceroc nights and teaching at them, is that the success or failure of a night is never down to one factor only.
    It might be that the Intermediate classes weren't challenging enough for you or some of the people you spoke to, but there were no doubt many reasons why in the end the night closed...
    Conversely, there are many 'Beginners' nights that cater to Beginners and have a very basic Intermediate class, who thrive and do better than most...

    I make no apologies for serving Beginners first, the way I see it, and this was discussed in the Hotshots thread, without a clear focus on Beginners most of us wouldn't be dancing today!
    Typically, anyone who becomes more proficient, then forgets how and why they got hooked in the first place, and suddenly want to change the very classes that got them where they are, without realising that those changes might put off the Beginners.

    It would cost very little in Ceroc classes to teach a little more about lead and follow, musicality, to structure the intermediate routine to contain at least one reasonably difficult move that illustrates something of these.
    This I totally agree with, and the current Teacher training already reflects that, more is being done in the background on that subject and while the Ceroc formula is (in my opinion) the best, a lot can be changed, and will be.

    Franck.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Franck
    I disagree, there are many incredible dancers and brilliant teachers in the C.T.A. all they need is the framework and extra training to develop in what I believe will put the current 'stars' to shame...
    Franck.
    Ahhhh ... well I remain to be convinced. I'm not alone in thinking that the teaching and dancing ability of CTA graduates has declined over the last few years as Ceroc has pushed for 'Image' over form. If what you say is true ... then over the next year or so there should be real battle between the upcoming Ceroc 'Advanced' teachers and the existing A list. This may make some teachers uncomfortable but it can only be a GOOD THING for Modern Jive dancing as a whole ..... let the competition commence

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    Registered User Neil's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    What do you think about organisers who do not teach or bring in new dancers but put dances on to cash in (my personal hate)
    I don't really see what the problem is with this, LL. Here in Nottingham, for instance, the market for teaching modern jive is dominated 100% by Ceroc. They put on a freestyle dance around once a month, which is all well and good. However, that leaves three weekends a month when there's no jive event on here (no problem for devotees like me and DavidY who will happily drive to Leicester, Birmingham, Scotland etc. for a dance - but the average punter at Ceroc isn't interested in doing that, and in fact will think you're a bit barmy if you tell them about it ). This gap in the market is partly filled by a guy who organises his own freestyle dances, again about once a month. One interpretation might be that he's "cashing in", another that he's merely providing a service to his fellow dancers. Either way, I'm glad he does it, coz it saves on petrol



    Neil

  14. #14

    Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Neil
    I don't really see what the problem is with this, LL. Here in Nottingham, for instance, the market for teaching modern jive is dominated 100% by Ceroc. They put on a freestyle dance around once a month, which is all well and good. However, that leaves three weekends a month when there's no jive event on here (no problem for devotees like me and DavidY who will happily drive to Leicester, Birmingham, Scotland etc. for a dance - but the average punter at Ceroc isn't interested in doing that, and in fact will think you're a bit barmy if you tell them about it ). This gap in the market is partly filled by a guy who organises his own freestyle dances, again about once a month. One interpretation might be that he's "cashing in", another that he's merely providing a service to his fellow dancers. Either way, I'm glad he does it, coz it saves on petrol



    Neil
    point taken
    we have at least one dance every week - often two or three, and still get non teachers putting on dances to IMHO cash in on others hard work
    p

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    Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not

    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    we have at least one dance every week - often two or three, and still get non teachers putting on dances to IMHO cash in on others hard work
    Yeah, from what I've read on this forum the situation in your neck of the woods is pretty crazy as regards competition. I agree that if you had a non-teaching organiser putting on dances that clashed with those of a teaching organisation, that would be a different matter altogether.

    Neil

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    Registered User Jon L's Avatar
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    I learnt my jive in a ceroc venue for 2 years, going through beginners and intermediate. I did wonder why when looking at the map of venues they never had any venues south of Horsham. It wasn't until I went to the Rebel Yell and Bognor that I understood why. This where I started meeting people like Nigel, Nina, Mr. Lizard and rediscovered Viktor and Lydia who were ceroc teachers.

    Now ceroc is undoubtably good for beginners, why?? because the training for a teacher is quite rigid. Someone I know who has just passed her teaching exam, showed me her manual. They have to recite word for word what is on the page. So when you go to a ceroc venue anywhere as a newcomer you will get the routine as standard.

    The good independents, are better when you have been going a while and want to do stuff that is more taxing. The independents perhaps could do with some agreement where they all acknowledge each other, as there are some pants teachers around as well.

    I do think that not allowing ceroc teachers to do Bognor and Camber is a mistake in my opinion,

    I have heard it said that ceroc is targeting the 20-30 market, if this is true then this needs a rethink, as the music will deter the seasoned jiver!

    The independant jive teachers have better music in my opinion, that is why I like the older stuff played by Mr. Lizard, John Miller (Jag Jive), John Brett etc. etc. They player a much wider range.

    Where I live I am spoilt for choice I have ceroc surrey, leroc Dorking, Rebel Roc and Jive Bug all within easy travelling distance, and within an hour I have the South Coast (jules Jive Hove, love to dancei in Portsmouth ) and Hipsters. All of them are pretty good. Then on some Saturdays I have Jag Jive which is a lovely atmosphere (no cliques and good music ) and is so close to my home I could walk there.




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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not - sorry, long

    Originally posted by Franck
    without a clear focus on Beginners most of us wouldn't be dancing today!
    I think it's a big mistake to have any single "clear focus".

    To use a working life analogy, no one would dispute the importance of recruitment - but a career path rapidly takes over as a priority for people once recruited.

    I can only speak for myself, but it is likely, for example, that having been reintroduced to dancing via Ceroc after many years off the floor, I would have given up again about 18 months ago, if I hadn't found Hipsters (god, that sounds like a religious conversion, doesn't it - sorry )

    As you say, a successful or unsuccessful venue isn't made so by a single factor - it's the overall shape of the night - the music, the teaching, the people, the presence or absence of sources of inspiration...

    ... but do I think you might underestimate how big a difference a single factor can sometimes make - and sometimes the management isn't in the best place to get the unadulterated feedback. Another Ceroc venue I know very well was going nowhere, and then the teacher changed. Almost overnight, it started getting much better, more good dancers started coming, irregulars got more regular. This was so down to that single factor, I promise you. People said things to me as 'one of them' that they would never have said to either the teacher or the venue manager.
    Typically, anyone who becomes more proficient, then forgets how and why they got hooked in the first place, and suddenly want to change the very classes that got them where they are, without realising that those changes might put off the Beginners.
    Agreed. I am certainly not suggesting a radical change to the format of the classes. But a little salt with chips, maybe a drop of vinegar too, makes a colossal difference

    Chris

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    Originally posted by Jon L
    I learnt my jive in a ceroc venue for 2 years, going through beginners and intermediate. I did wonder why when looking at the map of venues they never had any venues south of Horsham. It wasn't until I went to the Rebel Yell and Bognor that I understood why. This where I started meeting people like Nigel, Nina, Mr. Lizard and rediscovered Viktor and Lydia who were ceroc teachers.
    With all due respect, you do not understand why. There was a at least one Ceroc franchise "South of Horsham" and the franchisee decided to go it alone.

    I started meeting people like Nigel and Nina and John Brett in Bedford. They get around. Their enormous fan base, built over years, is one reason why Hipsters could succeed so quickly.

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not - sorry, long

    Originally posted by ChrisA
    I think it's a big mistake to have any single "clear focus".
    In business it is essential. It is also essential to learn and adapt.

    Ceroc was conceived as "the MacDonalds of dance". The same product across the country. However disdainfully that concept is regarded it works as a business. The consequences of changing that concept could have killed the business long ago.

    Cater for the advanced dancer? Open a Ceroc Hipsters a few years back?

    People go to Ceroc to learn, to meet people, to dance, and to watch the best. If the best are creamed off then other venues suffer the loss of the elite to learn from, and to watch and admire. If Ceroc had done it with a Ceroc Hipsters then the other franchisees would have suffered, as they are suffering now, but they would have blamed Ceroc management, and been more likely to go their own way.

    Ceroc is adapting. Changes are in the pipeline to stay focused, but focused on the situation as it is now. There are smart people running it, and always have been. It has not got here by chance.

    Interesting times.
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 8th-November-2003 at 05:58 PM.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Ceroc or not - sorry, long

    Originally posted by ChrisA
    I think it's a big mistake to have any single "clear focus".
    I never said 'single' I said without a clear focus on Beginners
    Of course Ceroc focus on many other things. One of them is quality and consistency of teachers and of the night itself.

    Many venues have tried to attract the more 'advanced' dancers, but usually, the clear focus is on some sort of elitist approach, ie, "I want my dance venue to have the dancers I want to dance with, not the new dancers, not the bad dancers, not ..."

    The problem with venues like Hipsters, is that while they do attract some of the best dancers (and those that think they are, they do not cater for the needs of Beginners, and for every successful new person introduced by a member of the in-crowd, there will be dozens of new people visiting who get turned down, and crucially, will not learn anything (at least nothing they're prepared to hear).
    While all this is happening, some of the better dancers and inspirational examples that used to go to the other nights, are not there anymore and, as you say, another venue closes...
    So in the end, who will cater for the Beginners?
    ... but do I think you might underestimate how big a difference a single factor can sometimes make - and sometimes the management isn't in the best place to get the unadulterated feedback.
    I wouldn't do that, but the example you quote, where the teacher was changed, is more than one factor... Often, if a teacher is changed, it means that a problem had been identified, and that venue wasn't successful, so as well as bringing a new teacher, maybe more training was given to taxi-dancers, more busking took place, more promotion, etc...

    As for feedback, anyone not willing to listen won't hear, but I'd like to think that over the last couple years since the Forum started, it has provided a way to receive feedback for myself, but all promoters and organizers... Some useful, some not... ultimately, each of us has to live with the commercial decisions we take

    Franck.

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