Modern Jive - Business Model

[Keefy]

Once again a thread descends into a 'waaahhhh... look at what those nasty Ceroc people did...' whinge. Is it helping? No. Is it contributing anything new? No. Is it bringing back Southport or stopping it happening again? No. People seem to have taken umbrage at just one word in my original post and used that to accuse me of biased and shoot the messenger.

Try reading again what I actually wrote, the whole sentence, in context -

Some of it is indeed parasitic, there is nothing at all wrong with that, a parasitic existence can be symbiotic.

The word 'parasitic' was not used or meant in any derogatory or demeaning way, it was used to describe the actual business model being used, it is a very common term. There is no way that I'm pro Ceroc, or pro independent for that matter, I am a regular customer of both camps and have been for some time. My only interest is in seeing that choice remain, that was the whole point of my post.

Again there is much pointless debate about whether the JA business model was symbiotic as well as parasitic. Well it is, if you use the definition of symbiosis as being something that is contributed that is not or cannot be provided by the host(s) then it is indeed symbiotic. The JA weekender's were/are instrumental in building the weekender market and contributing to the retention of experienced dancers in my view. But once Ceroc entered the weekender market in a big way then the relationship with Ceroc changed to a purely parasitic one, the writing was on the wall, but the business model was not adapted to take account of that simple fact.

Then people complain about how "fair" it was for Ceroc to enter the weekender market at all. Although it is deemed fine for the independents to take advantage of somebody else establishing a product it is somehow unacceptable when Ceroc does the same thing and takes something and builds on that. In one breath people are screaming about the lack of competition with Ceroc taking a large share of the weekender market, then in the next breath they are complaining that Ceroc entered the market at all and established some competition! Make your mind up, which way do you want it?

As I said before, it's business, I'm sorry if you don't like that fact but I am afraid that we are all stuck with it. Now I know it's not the done thing on here but how about keeping the thread on track and discussing the actual business issues and business models? If you look at the whole of my original post instead of pouncing on just one word you will see that was what I was trying to discuss, something longer term and sustainable that would benefit the MJ market as a whole. That's what I'd like to see, but with other recent threads and people just wanting to sit around and cry over spilt milk I'm not seeing that much hope

[Lynn]

In one breath people are screaming about the lack of competition with Ceroc taking a large share of the weekender market, then in the next breath they are complaining that Ceroc entered the market at all and established some competition!

I haven't seen any posts saying Ceroc should not have enterered the weekender market at all. Could you provide links to these posts please? I'm not being sarky or anything, I have genuinely missed seeing these posts.

I know some people have commented on the number of weekenders that Ceroc started in a relatively short space of time - but as they have to date been more or less aimed at the same customer base with a fairly similar product on offer (with the exception of Blaze and possibly of Swish?) then in effect Ceroc weekenders have been in competition with other Ceroc weekenders as much, if not more so than other organisers. However with their massive weekly customer base (how many thousand new dancers per year is it again?) they are always getting new potential weekender customers.

Personally I think Ceroc came onto the weekender market with a different sort of product from JA and I liked the fact that there was that choice of weekender experience between JA and Ceroc and IMO there still is. They have their own distinctive products and the customer still has choice over which they prefer to attend. Which is what we want as dancers.

[bigdjiver]

...Business is business is just a poor excuse for bad ethics.

This attitude will never prove sustainable on a long term basis. The current climate is an echo of that fact.

"It is my prediction that organisations run with strong ethics and social agendas are the ones that will become the leading brands in the next decade." Rachel Naugh ex Dragons Den

Behind every business are real people with feelings and a consciousness. If we are consciously aware; we intuitively know what is right and wrong. With good communication there is always a better way to do things.

...There is now a new franchisee that has taken over that is much more business orientated. Despite the fact that we teach WCS & Tango, he sadly sees us a threat and I have it on reliable source from two of our WCS assistants who also go to Ceroc that he refers to us as the enemy??? ...

I tried to find useful business advisor sites on the web to save myself typing. In passing I found: "understand that your competition sees you as another company trying to take money out of their pockets."

[bigdjiver]

...If a business like Ceroc is secure in its products and service it would not have to live in fear ...

No business should be secure in its products and services. Every business should live in fear. Just think of the news over the last few weeks. Massive brand leaders have gone under.

[bigdjiver]

... There seems to be so much unwarranted fear here. It always amazes me that those that have the most are never satisfied and become fearful. There must be a lesson here somewhere...

"One of the common mistakes in business is underestimating the competition. Whether they're big or small."

What are the options? Do we stifle creativity? Should we not have a desire to improve, innovate?

No, your "we" has to have those desires. It is the big established business that has to fear change. Kodak got hit by Polaroid. They took real damage from digital cameras.

...In reality this does not affect Ceroc to any great extent. Mandy & I have always tried to innovate in our neck of the woods. We have taught slotted Jive, Salsa Jive, Tango 4 Jivers and WCS to Jivers. We have offered freestyles to back these classes up. At first the big boys Mo’Jive etc. may have perceived us a threat. Now we get on great and even work together. They recognise what their market is. They now know there is not much money in specialising and it is dam hard work. They are happy for us to provide the minority of their dancers with the X factor they want. It keeps them involved. They promote us with no fear of threat. We in turn promote them. Everyone wins...

I have not read Rachel's book, but it is on my todo list. Meanwhile I suggest all organisers and wannabe's take the Rachel Naugh entrepreneur test, link on:

Rachel Elnaugh :: Entrepreneur

I came up as a "Dadpreneur", bordering on "passionpreneur" and "sociopreneur". I suspect many independents are "passionprenuers".

If you work for love then your demands for financial returns are less. If you want less then you can charge lower prices. If you charge lower prices then you attract more customers and your growth rate increases. When your venue overflows you can turn people away, or raise your prices, or open another venue.

If you have a successful business model it can be copied. Other passionprenuers can do it.

...Fear, fear, fear! mans greatest enemy...

Fear alerts you to peril. Rational fear is good.

...Once again…such fear should not get in the way. Or do we turn out ‘Stepford Dancers’ all dancing just the same to the same tune??? Diversity & innovation will always happen, it is “thankfully” one of the great qualities of human nature.

Most of the innovation and diversity that has come from events such as Southport have no root in Ceroc anyway. The main influences have come from other forms of dance such as Swing, WCS, Tango, Salsa etc. ..

... and all these dances had small beginnings.

re my bundle of twigs being stronger quote:

Another wise old man laughed and said “No need to break them…as the bundle gets bigger, it begins to rot from the inside out due to the lack of fresh air.”

One man's rot is another mans uncontrolled organic growth.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Once again a thread descends into a 'waaahhhh... look at what those nasty Ceroc people did...' whinge.

Has it ? Where ? It may "just be business" as you and others have said, but its not "nice" or "perfectly acceptable" or woth glossing over completely as if it didn't matter in the slightest when it clearly has bothered people. If no one kept going on about it being ok, no one would be here arguing.

People seem to have taken umbrage at just one word in my original post and used that to accuse me of biased and shoot the messenger.

You're a messenger now ? For Ceroc I take it...

..gah, no i cant do it anymore. I'm taking a Dreadfully Scathing weekend off. Your posts were fine and not biased and I'm off out for lunch

[Sugarfoot]

Once again a thread descends into a 'waaahhhh... look at what those nasty Ceroc people did...' whinge.

I have just read through the thread again. I cannot agree with your winging comment and sadly that is how things degenerate into the condescending. The current issues with apparent conflicting business models cannot simply be swept under the carpet before discussing options of ways to go forward. History is a lesson to us all.

Is it ethical? Debatable, but ethics don't pay the bills.

I have said before, we all intuitively know what is right and wrong. Behaving unethically will always be a poor & lazy excuse to pay bills.

The word 'parasitic' was not used or meant in any derogatory or demeaning way.

Reading your original post… I believe you, but it is an unfortunate word all the same, and others have jumped in and used that word in a way that most would see it.

Again there is much pointless debate about whether the JA business model was symbiotic as well as parasitic. Well it is, if you use the definition of symbiosis as being something that is contributed that is not or cannot be provided by the host(s) then it is indeed symbiotic.

Forgive me for using the current situation, it is what we have at the moment and makes it all seem more relative. If I read this right, you are saying that any business I start will only be considered symbiotic if Ceroc cannot do it themselves. In theory…that does not leave us with much of a chance does it? Ceroc, Beroc etc. simply have to watch to see if my idea works and decide if they would like to do it themselves. If they do, I have suddenly gone from symbiotic to parasitic in the major players eyes. What are my options here?

The JA weekender's were/are instrumental in building the weekender market and contributing to the retention of experienced dancers in my view. But once Ceroc entered the weekender market in a big way then the relationship with Ceroc changed to a purely parasitic one, the writing was on the wall, but the business model was not adapted to take account of that simple fact.

A fair point. What could JA have done with their business model to have changed the outcome?

Then people complain about how "fair" it was for Ceroc to enter the weekender market at all. Although it is deemed fine for the independents to take advantage of somebody else establishing a product it is somehow unacceptable when Ceroc does the same thing and takes something and builds on that.

I have to agree with Lynn here. I have not seen any evidence of people complaining about Ceroc entering the weekend market. I think we all agree that it was a natural progression for Ceroc. I did however say: when they added (is it?) 8 events it had more impact on the Ceroc franchisee local events than any independent events. I have been told this in person. The “taking advantage” comment is also unfortunate, as it implies a deliberate and targeted action. I don’t feel that is the case. There was/is a need, and that need was filled. What people have strongly expressed was that it was not necessary for Ceroc to take over Southport in an attempt to put JA out of business. Most have expressed this was not only bad for JA, but also for Ceroc in that it has not made them look good (in a people business) and they probably face a Southport that will be a poor shadow of the original. I am sure they will do all they can, but it will not have the same people attending. The venue is good, but it was the people that made it. Again this highlights that is as much about people as it is businesses. Ignore that at your peril.

Business is ‘not’ just business and ethics ‘do’ play a real part, especially in the social dance world where it is all about people.

Harmony requires the ability to see things w(holistically). We cannot conveniently separate business from people and expect to achieve harmony.

[Sugarfoot]

re my bundle of twigs being stronger quote:

One man's rot is another mans uncontrolled organic growth.

Thank you for making my point. Every action as an equal opposite reaction, life is cyclic and nature has way of sorting it all out which ever way you go.