Yeah, like being between a 'Rocky and a hard place'. I think it's understood Ceroc can't win either way with certain people. Ceroc want to hear what really works for people and why SP is so special to them to make them feel like it's still familiar - but by doing so they will of course be accused of copy cat tactics..
The view is to keep what most people love (bearing in mind you can't please everybody) and then to add in some extras to try and take it to another level. I'm sure JA will be doing the same thing, which should lead to an overall improvement - and it should also lead to the development of Ceroc weekenders with specific 'characters' rather than just a rehash of the same event time after time. Viva Las Vegas was an example, Breeze with the UTOPIA room and Blues champs another, and I think there's more to come.
Stewart your eye sight must be going, I highlighted what I originally wrote. I can dance all evening to Ceroc Anthems in the main hall, I can also hear all the bouncy tracks there as well.
I enjoy WCS but I still also enjoy dancing mordern jive in all its guises, there no greater rush than going flat out to a good old Ceroc anthem in the main room BUT I don't want to be doing that in the Blues room at any time of the day or nite, IMHO
Reference has been made to "aftermath" threads about previous Southports as a source of suggestions for improvements. This is true, but there is one hell of a lot of posts to wade through and only a small percentage of them will be relevant to the topic of this thread.
With this in mind, and for ease of reference, here is the meat of a post I made about this year's June Southport which attempted to summarise many of the views expressed about how things might be improved:
"So, lets try to sum up and plot a way forward:
1. People will pretty much get up and dance to whatever music is played in the "Blues Lounge". Just because lots of people are dancing doesn't necessarily mean they all think the music is ideal.
2. The Marquee, though an improvement on the old dance den, had some problems (most notably the lack of chairs and tables) which didn't always make it a popular choice, especially for WCS.
3. .....therefore a lot of WCS dancers stayed mainly in the "Blues Lounge"
4. ....and this perhaps might have influenced some DJ's in the "blues lounge" to play more WCS music.
5. "Blues music" as in the sort of music played in "Blues rooms" covers a pretty wide canvas and cetainly isn't limited to pure blues / old school blues / traditonal blues / call it what you will.
7. "WCS music" is if anything less clearly defined than "blues music". it also covers a pretty wide range of musical genres and MJ can also be danced quite happily to most of it.
8. Although there were specific slots in the marquee dedicated to WCS the SP DJ's were not asked to generally avoid playing WCS music in the blues lounge at those times.
9. There are a number of people on this forum who would have liked a bit more "Blues music" in the blues lounge and rather less "WCS music", but lets not forget that those expressing this view represent a tiny minority of the dancers at SP.
So what can or should be done about all this. Here are some possible suggestions for the future:
- tweak the Marquee concept by if possible making the floor less dusty and getting some tables and chairs in there.
- perhaps introduce one or two specific one hour slots in the blues lounge for "pure old school blues". These should not be at times when nearly everyone is in bed.
- suggest to DJ's that they should avoid "WCS music" at times when there are specific WCS slots in the marquee.
- see if a way can be found to have at least one WCS slot in the marquee that starts earlier than 1:30 am. Perhaps one of the tango slots could be moved to the Latin room to free up some more time for WCS in the marquee.
- ask DJ's to play some slower, more chilled stuff at certain times - say after 1:00am and perhaps in the late afternoon on Sunday.
These are just a few ideas, I am sure not everyone will agree and it is of course impossible to please everyone all of the time.
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that what we are talking about is an event where nearly everyone seems to have had a great time. It is really just a case of how to make something fantastic just that little bit more fantastic, if that is humanly possible.
From a personal perspective I never found that the music being played in the blues lounge put me off dancing - and most of the stuff that was played I thoroughly enjoyed. I did however feel that a touch more down and dirty blues would not have gone amiss, and would have liked things to have become a bit more chilled and "bluesy" after say 1:00 am with the funky / swing stuff less in evidence. So it is just a question of a bit of fine tuning rather than radical change."
One other thing I would like to add is that the addition of "master classes" (as available at Breeze) would be a welcome addition to Southport.
Oh, and if there are going to be sack the DJ slots at future Southports in the blues room then there need to be some definite guidelines about what type of music should be played. If there is going to be all day dancing then you probably have to have some "unofficial" DJ's playing during the day because the alternative is to just have pre-recorded music. Perhaps what needs to happen is that anyone wanting to DJ should be told that unless they follow whatever guidelines they are given they may have their set curtailed. That would also entail someone from Ceroc keeping an ear on what is being played and intervening if necessary for example if someone tries to insist on playing mainstream main room music for example. If properly organised and policed with a light touch this could work well and be better than hour after hour of pre-recorded music (which can often be the same CD played repeatedly).
The point I am making is that there is already a wealth of information on this forum, from a wide range of opinions, about what has been good, not so good, and bad about many previous JA and Ceroc weekenders. Someone like Rocky who we all know is a regular reader of this forum would know all of this already.
So why ask for it all again? If he doesn't know by now there is no point telling him again.
On the other hand there would be a good purpose in canvassing opinion if you want to generate a feeling that our opinions were being listened to and that as a result Cerocport would be the dancing Nirvarna that this vocal minority on the forum wish. People who would otherwise give a ceroc weekender a miss would go just to see if everything that they ever wanted was in one place. Personally, it seems a good and clever tactic.
So why would one Ceroc event (Cerocport) be special? Surely every one of their events would be as good as they could possibly make them.
All the information they could possibly want has been rolled out on their own forum. They can't claim to be ignorant now. So why play dumb?
the things that make SP special to me, probably not relevant to anyone else.
1. been in the same apartment each time right oppressive the venue, I wouldn't go to Scarborough or Bognor (if it was on) cos of the walk to the venue, when you have got dressed and ready to go out trudging around the site.
2. The forum Gathering and BBQ weather you go or not, its the fact that John and Wes have taken the time out to lay on something special it make ME feel special, theres no, where we going to meet and at what time? we know its in black and white.
3. dancing on the deccing as the sun comes up, is the most magical feeling.
4. been able to go from room to room without going up and down stairs.
5. the food area in the blues room it give you chance to gab a bite to eat and watch, I don't stand watching very often.
its on a need to know basis, do you NEED to know
Surprisingly I agree, but it was one of the best set of the whole weekend IMO
Ok am I in a minority of 1 ?. These comments to me look like someone wanting to improve a WCS weekender
Am I the only one that sees WCS as 'taking over' , or am I in a 'tiny minority'
I dont know how successful WCS is around the country , I heard one class closed in London due to lack of support.
I know that WCS classes are well attended at Southport but this is a Jive weekender.
If you want more of WCS less of Jive more WCS in the blues room then dont add a Thanks to this post . Are the Jive people now at a Jive event only a tiny minority
I'm in agreement with you here Stewart (the bits I could understand). This is probably the bit I have a problem with most. There isn't a big enough WCS crowd to share amongst the Cerocport and the JA weekenders. JA is a dance weekend, Ceroc is a Jive weekend, IMO. So why do Ceroc want to have WCS at their new venture? Because it will stand more chance of killing off JA if they do and make it easier to recreate the 'Southport vibe'. If however JA carried on veering towards the WCS end of the dance market along with the other dances they catered for and Ceroc didn't try to copy that side of things, I feel like they could both come out winners. Ceroc can still make Southport a different weekender than their others, with such things as a pure blues room, 24 hour dancing and international teachers but why focus on the WCS pro's? There are many styles of dance if they want to add something different. If you really want us to believe you are doing this for the passion of dance Mike please don't try to replicate JA's Southport and dilute the dancers between the two, make it something different so we want to do both!
There say you can only see the Great wall of China from space im not sure about that , your appartment looks pretty impressive
Location is important , at Bognor its a good 10 minute walk to get from Chalet to venue and the rooms were divided, so you hair gets wet
The layout of the venue is good at Soutport
The bit where it mentions on the Blush web site
International West Coast Swing Coaches
About 6 places above the 'ceroc teachers'
[QUOTE=Rocky;497493]- but by doing so they will of course be accused of copy cat tactics..
QUOTE]
But thats exactly what Ceroc will be doing .
Ceroc know exactly what makes SP so special, they know the venue is better and know what J & W put on to make it the best.
I dont think Ceroc could bring any aspect of their other weekends to SP, if they did they would have to loose another aspect of what actually works.
Can anyone From Ceroc IE Rocky, Mike, Frank, tell me what you plan to bring to make it better?
Well, how about effecient registration where people don't have to queue for 40 mins to get their keys? (as mentioned on the aftermath threads) How about the Masterclasses, that have proved one of the most popular features Ceroc have ever introduced on a weekender. How about the ability to be able to buy your DVD on the Sunday? If all things were equal, this would lead to an overall incremental improvement in the event don't you think? That's not to mention other things that may be actioned that at this stage would obviously be commercially sensitive.
I think you've missed something here Cruella. You're making an assumption (and of course you would..) that the employment of top class WCS pros is just to court the advanced WCS dancers like yourself. But it's not - you get two bangs for your buck.
Firstly, Ceroc is known for bringing new dancers into the scene and who better to teach those new dancers WCS than the top US pros? And who better to inspire them than the US pros? You and a number of other people, have been moaning for ages that Ceroc aren't developing their dancers, and now you're moaning about them doing what you wanted! The use of the US pros would therefore lead to an INCREASE in people being more interested in WCS and an overall INCREASE in WCS dancers. That benefits everyone and would help to support both JA's new weekenders and Ceroc's.
Secondly, I think we all appreciate that people's own availabilty, finances, commitments etc. means for whatever reason they may not be able to attend one event or another. If you therefore couldn't make a JA event due to your commitments, don't you think it is useful to have a similar event in the same geographical area that would still interest you? In addition it offers more choice. People on the forum like to bang on about more choice being a good thing when it suits them - and the new SP gives you that. JA and Ceroc's weekenders do not clash. They are also similar so now people can go to either, or both events, and make their OWN mind up about what they are getting for their money. And because they will have a similar structure you will be able to compare them directly. This comsumer dynamic will improve the standard of both sets of weekenders which can only be good for the dance community as a whole.
Further, Ceroc's development of Southport is part of their overall commitment to start to create a recognizable character for each of their weekenders. And you have to admit that if you were going to develop a WCS/Blues based weekender you would be stupid not to use Southport because of it's association with it.
And by the way, Ceroc weekenders just by their content ARE dance weekenders - pure jive probably makes up less than 50% of the total curriculum of recent events.
I've been one of the one's who've moaned that Ceroc give much more to the importance of 'new dancers' with everything that they do.
Until UTOPIA that is.
I've sometimes felt that the lack of specific places aimed at the more advanced dancer, has been a bad business decision. and have been grateful to JA for mopping up this neglected sector and for listening and providing them with what they want.
I've always been of the opinion that Ceroc should look after these people, as one day it might come back to bite them.
Getting new people through the door is one of the most important things for everyone and no one can deny Ceroc are by far the best at this but I think Ceroc have sometimes got it wrong, when they say that providing stuff exclusively aimed at the experienced dancer, will be to the detriment of the beginner, by making them feel inferior or excluded?
I don't believe 'new' people have any expectancy at all, they simply accept the status quo...... "i'm a beginner and yes, there's another level to aim for and aspire to... but I'm not there yet"
I'm just surprised its taken so long for this to sink in!
Maybe too long? Only time will tell!
But, whatever's happen and whatever goes on, I am glad they're raising the bar again!
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
I agree 100% with the registration problems but we all know that the SP fundermentals do work. OK bring in the Master class and take out what?
As for the DVD, dancers want an edited DVD, a DVD that they can sit and watch and learn new moves; from what ive heard the Ceroc DVD is not that good compared to others.
Im not talking Ceroc into the gutter but in my opinion they can not improve the dancing side of SP.
Gee thanks, but I'm still very much a beginner/intermediate in WCS even though I can manage the whole of Paul Wardens workshops.
Yes it is known for bringing new dancers to MJ not WCS. If you are aiming to bring in new dancers to WCS why go to the expense of bringing in Pros from the USA? When there are plenty WCS teachers in GB that could teach beginners. If you bring over the USA pro's to teach beginner WCS it isn't really much of an appeal to the advanced WCS dancer anyway, as they won't get much from the classes.Firstly, Ceroc is known for bringing new dancers into the scene and who better to teach those new dancers WCS than the top US pros? And who better to inspire them than the US pros?
We have been moaning for years and years and that's why JA took up the challenge that Ceroc didn't. If Ceroc were so concerned about it, why did it take 27 years to do what people were asking for and once the need was already being catered for elsewhere?You and a number of other people, have been moaning for ages that Ceroc aren't developing their dancers, and now you're moaning about them doing what you wanted!
.Agreed that an increase in interest in WCS is good for the WCS dance scene. As I said earlier though, that can be acheived by using British teachers. Also I think it might be detrimental to Ceroc as many people that start WCS actually stop MJ so they can concentrate on it better. So I'm not sure why they would promote that.The use of the US pros would therefore lead to an INCREASE in people being more interested in WCS and an overall INCREASE in WCS dancers. That benefits everyone and would help to support both JA's new weekenders and Ceroc's
Surely I'm not the only one to see the irony in that sentence!JA and Ceroc's weekenders do not clash.
We all hope so.This comsumer dynamic will improve the standard of both sets of weekenders which can only be good for the dance community as a whole.
Absolutely, why work to build up a reputation when you can use someone elses!Further, Ceroc's development of Southport is part of their overall commitment to start to create a recognizable character for each of their weekenders. And you have to admit that if you were going to develop a WCS/Blues based weekender you would be stupid not to use Southport because of it's association with it.
The one thing I would like to improve about Southport.. based apon my experiences (ok.. experience .. singular) at the last one.. it may not rank up there with other peoples suggestions but then I have a different perspective to most.
Decent WiFi / broadband connectivity
Hey I'm a geek.. so shoot me!
(ok.. more perhaps beginner classes would be nice.. especially for perpetual beginners like me )
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