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Thread: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

  1. #41
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I AM genuinely interested!
    OK then - let's break it down.
    ..
    ..
    Actually, since I've already spent far too long on here today, forget the breaking it all down.

    It's the leaders' fault

    Ta daaa.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    But is that the leads fault?
    No. The women I'm thinking of who do that (stepping several feet to your right/their left during returns) all go to the same class. Only when dancing with ladies from that particular class do I tend to end up with my partner on my right at the end of a basic first move, which suggests that it's not my fault.

  3. #43
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    So we should all grip and hug to an inch of our lives?
    Grip, no. Provide a better area of contact (i.e. more than one finger), yes.

  4. #44
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    No. The women I'm thinking of who do that (stepping several feet to your right/their left during returns) all go to the same class. Only when dancing with ladies from that particular class do I tend to end up with my partner on my right at the end of a basic first move, which suggests that it's not my fault.
    Really depends which way you look at it. To take a fairly extreme case.... say you're a God amongst leaders, are dancing with a particular lady on a crowded floor, and rapidly discover that there may be absolutely no way a particular follower can be led through a return to go where you want her to, and instead, she seems to go careening of her own volition straight towards the nearest couple on the floor. Her fault? Or yours?

    Well - if you will persist in leading her in moves where you know this is likely to happen, it's still your fault. You have the choice of leading something safer (eg - go the David Bailey route, and do lots of cross-body leads... or keep her in close hold as much as possible - there's a lot of options) You may not get such an exciting dance out of it, but it'll at least be safer.

    So ... leader's fault. Always

  5. #45
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    So ... leader's fault. Always
    Nah, I don't agree. That's an over-generalisation. While many things that can go wrong in a dance are the leader's fault, some things are definitely the follower's fault. In this case, they are not following correctly what is lead. A good leader may be able to compensate for this, but it is the follower who is causing the problem in the first place.

  6. #46
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    So ... leader's fault. Always
    And neither do I! You're getting into floorcraft here, rather than leading. Two separate elements, albeit with a strong crossover, but leading somebody safely around the floor is not the same as leading them through a dance move. It's always easy to blame the lead when something goes wrong, and in many cases, it is their fault, but not always. A good leader can giude most followers through a move, whether or not they are experienced, but there are times when things go wrong simply because the follower has done something completely unpredictable that could not have been anticipated or corrected.


    Coming back to the original points in the email, here's my tuppence worth -

    Rotational dancing - Yes, it is acceptable in MJ, but constant rotation is just a bad habit. The great thing about MJ styles, like Ceroc, is the freedom of expression they give the dancer. Being able to move around the whole floor allows you to alter the style of individual moves to provide differing variations. Constant rotation is normally caused by a leader not finishing a move properly, either by over or under rotating on each move, or by a follower doing the same when dancing with a less confident leader who is unable to compensate for the variations in the moves. It's not necessarily wrong, but it doesn't look great and it probably isn't the most pleasant style to follow. As a follower, though, it is hard to compensate for a leader doing this without disrupting the natural flow of the dance. The leader is, in theory, in charge and you should go where you are lead. If you don't, you won't be where he expects you to be and connections will be missed. If it's someone you dance with a lot, tell them. They may not be aware and will probably appreciate the advice, if it is delivered properly...

    Clock Work Arm Syndrome - This is a horrible habit! It really disrupts the flow of the dance and is unpleasant to follow and to lead! As above, they may not be aware of it, so if you know them well enough, let them know that you find it hard to follow. I danced with a woman on Tuesday night who did this and I had to work really hard to ignore it and keep her under control. Apart from that, she was a lovely dancer and we had a good dance, but without the clockwork arms to worry about, we would have had a great dance!

    'Rotton Fish' Handhold - This is a funny one. Lead properly, a loose handhold with little contact is very useful, but not for every move. A good leader, leading a good follower, needs a very light lead for most moves and a lead using just a couple of fingers is very helpful for certain rotational moves. It gives more control and minimises rotation of your joints, but it shouldn't be used for every move. Certain moves may require a ballroom grip or a monkey grip or just a more secure hold. A good leader will adapt to the move. If somebody is using the same grip for every move, either their moves are very limited or they're just not a great leader. If somebody is using this type of lead all the time and you feel it's not working for you, just let go a few times and they'll soon increase their grip.

    So, to sum up and answer the original question, it doesn't sound like you're at fault, Monndancer. If you feel confident doing so and know the people well enough, speak to them about it. If not, just avoid dancing with them and hope they will improve

  7. #47
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Nah, I don't agree. That's an over-generalisation. While many things that can go wrong in a dance are the leader's fault, some things are definitely the follower's fault. In this case, they are not following correctly what is lead.
    But in this (mildly hypothetical) case, you knew they wouldn't correctly follow what was led - and you led it regardless. And now that up-and-coming world pole-dancing champion who was dancing next to you has a five-inch stilletto through her left foot and may never work again. Can you really look me in the eye and say there was nothing you could have done to prevent it?

    I'll get me coat

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Leading doesn't require loads of contact, if any at all. One finger leading is as effective, if not more, than a fuller handhold.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to trigger off this sort of discussion, I don't find fewer fingers leading any less effective provided it's done properly. Actually my issue was the fact that I don't like being handled like a dead fish, especially when the lead has a west coast face on.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why not simply tell these people about the problems you're having following them? If you do it correctly ("I love dancing with you, but..." type of thing, men are real suckers for flattery), it should be easy enough.
    They've been doing this since I started as a beginner, so it would seem rude to say something now. But if I'd said something back then it would have been rude coming from an inexperienced beginner... I'm too polite. Or not brave enough. Or both!

    Either way, I don't fancy saying anything, I'd rather fix it from my side. And surely, learning how to compensate for my partner's dance style in order to achieve a better dance for us both would be part of improving my own dancing?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Firstly, have you told him that you get a bit dizzy? You could ask him if he wouldn't mind trying to lead more slotted moves, in order that it wouldn't make you so giddy?

    The other plan is to make your steps really smaller - and so surreptitiously making him dance around you! (I've done this, and it's quite amusing )

    Just another thought - do you suffer on spins, too? Have you tried spotting?
    I don't suffer from being dizzy at all and I don't have any problems at all with spins, in fact I like them.

    I normally start to feel sick if I can't see a reasonably stable 'horizon', so I don't enjoy dancing packed too tightly in a crowd because everything in my vision then appears to be moving and then I can't even 'emergency ground' myself by looking at the floor if it's full of people's moving feet! (Flashing lights are awful because they make walls and floor appear to move.)

    I'm aware that other people don't generally have these difficulties, so it is my problem rather than his. I feel like I am on a roundabout with him as the centre (with a moving background). I'm fine on real roundabouts, but not if I look at the middle of them! Other people probably wouldn't even notice he is rotating them because it wouldn't make them nauseous; it's a stupid sort of problem really, but it does only occur with this one lead.

    I will try making my steps much much smaller and see if I can experiment with altering his direction (him rotating round me might be just as sicky). So that would mean not following where he leads me, but going more where I want to go, making him adjust to me.


    I've lost the quote but doing frog jumps from side to side on the tick tock lead would be great. I won't do it, of course, but I'd love to get all the followers to do that with Mr Metronome for one evening!

  9. #49
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to trigger off this sort of discussion, I don't find fewer fingers leading any less effective provided it's done properly.
    Oh - I really wouldn't worry about that. You never can tell where a perfectly innocent question can lead on this forum ... which is often half the fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Either way, I don't fancy saying anything, I'd rather fix it from my side. And surely, learning how to compensate for my partner's dance style in order to achieve a better dance for us both would be part of improving my own dancing?
    Now this is the million dollar question. Or at least one of them. It could, yes. But constantly compensating for your partners' dance styles can also help ensure that said partners never really learn to lead properly... because they never realise that they're doing anything wrong. It can be something of a dilemma.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    But in this (mildly hypothetical) case, you knew they wouldn't correctly follow what was led
    Not until I had started dancing with her, I didn't. It's not hypothetical - I have a specific incident in mind. It was only afterwards that I asked her and found out she went to that particular class, though after a few seconds of dancing with her I'd pretty much guessed it.

    I did try to compensate during the dance, but I'm not used to dancing with people who move around quite that much in a direction I haven't led them in. Although I tend to dance in a slot, I can still have an enjoyable dance with most non-slotting ladies, but this was extreme (as are some others from the same class) and she was moving in fast circles around me, despite my attempts to lead her and, later, my attempts to "go with the flow". She kept stepping to my right and never turned more than 270 degrees on the returns.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    And now that up-and-coming world pole-dancing champion who was dancing next to you has a five-inch stilletto through her left foot and may never work again.
    Nah, the lady I was dancing with was wearing jazz shoes
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Can you really look me in the eye and say there was nothing you could have done to prevent it?
    No, because you're not here for me to look at you![/quote]

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Now this is the million dollar question. Or at least one of them. It could, yes. But constantly compensating for your partners' dance styles can also help ensure that said partners never really learn to lead properly...
    More importantly, it will almost certainly lead to you developing bad habits!

  12. #52
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    In this case, they are not following correctly what is lead.
    Grrrr!

    It's too late for me to edit this, but the led/lead confusion is something that normally drives me nuts when written by others! This was a typo, folks.

    Yes, I'm well aware that I'm a language pedant.

    For the record, lead = present tense, led = past tense.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    For the record, lead = present tense, led = past tense.
    so what is it i have in my pencil ?

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    But constantly compensating for your partners' dance styles can also help ensure that said partners never really learn to lead properly... because they never realise that they're doing anything wrong. It can be something of a dilemma.
    Quote Originally Posted by Filthy Monkey View Post
    More importantly, it will almost certainly lead to you developing bad habits!

    Really? Oh dear, I've probably got enough bad habits already without adding more.

    .....Mind you, as far as Mr Tick Tock is concerned, I don't think anything short of major limb surgery would make him alter his style.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    so what is it i have in my pencil ?
    Graphite!

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    If I find a follow is rotating around me a lot - usually due to their stepped turns starting at 12 o clock and ending at 3 o clock (yes, yes blame the lead, I know) - I just step across to my right and stand in their way and follow up with an in&out. It doesn't cure the 'problem' but it resets it and stops the dance becoming too much of a merry go round.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    so what is it i have in my pencil ?
    Not lead. QI told me so (I think).

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    If I find a follow is rotating around me a lot - usually due to their stepped turns starting at 12 o clock and ending at 3 o clock (yes, yes blame the lead, I know) - I just step across to my right and stand in their way and follow up with an in&out. It doesn't cure the 'problem' but it resets it and stops the dance becoming too much of a merry go round.
    But doesn't that ruin any tension/flow that there was? I know compensating doesn't help in the long run but should the lack of such detract from a dance?

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    But doesn't that ruin any tension/flow that there was?
    Not in my experience - it's more of a tactic just to make the follow aware of what they are doing. Many leads compensate in this instance by re-orienting themselves to 9 o clock or nearabouts and thus to the follow the relative placings are as they were before. To be honest though it's not something I experience a huge amount of as I tend to lead a lot more travelling returns than on the spot ones.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    .....Mind you, as far as Mr Tick Tock is concerned, I don't think anything short of major limb surgery would make him alter his style.
    Well - you could always take up a collection amongst other local followers to help fund this...

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