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Thread: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

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    Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Can I pick people’s brains in my quest towards perfection please?


    Maybe it’s something I’m doing in my dancing which is the cause, but I find that a few leads have a certain way of dancing with me which I'm not entirely keen on. If it’s me then I’d like to stop it, or if it isn’t me then I’d like to pick up some ‘resistance’ countermoves, but ones that I can do subtly without having to say “Oi, I don’t like the way you do xyz.”

    • Lead A has a violent tick-tock. He jerks his whole forearm from side to side on the beat while he’s holding my hand, which I find very distracting because it’s hard to tell when he wants to lead me to do something. It's also not a very comfortable handhold - it's quite firm so that he doesn't lose my hand on each jerk. I’m not out of time, I’ve tried to be extra-smooth, and I’ve tried changing my tension, but nothing has worked. The metronome effect is slightly less noticeable on faster beatier tracks because he hasn't got as much time in which to tick, but it’s quite horrid on smoother ones.

    • Lead B is a scaled-down version of Lead A – so maybe there is an easy nip-in-the-bud fix on this one..?

    • Lead C’s moves rotate me in a continuous one-way circle around him. By the end of the track I feel a bit peculiar. The moves are normal moves, so I don’t quite get where the rotation thing comes from. If they are very swappy-side-ish moves (e.g. a three-part octopus) I start remembering that I'm prone to travel sickness! I’ve tried being really careful about where I ‘land’, so I've tried making sure my turns are a proper 360 degrees no more no less, and my swaps are exactly 180 degrees, but I still seem to be revolving round him. I'm fine with turns and stuff normally, but honestly the walls and floor feel like they are beginning to heave about.

    • Not a problem but seeing as I'm posting anyway, is there a follower-equivalent of that 'rotten fish' handhold when a (usually good) lead holds your hand with minimal contact and as if he is holding something unpleasant and smelly?

    ...And just because I like this smily but can't see where to fit it in right now:

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Lead A has a violent tick-tock. He jerks his whole forearm from side to side on the beat while he’s holding my hand, which I find very distracting because it’s hard to tell when he wants to lead me to do something.

    Why not follow what he is unwittingly leading, and jump or step to the side when he jerks his arm that way? Then when he asks why you're hopping from side to side like a frog on speed, tell him it's because he's leading it! It'll either get a laugh while making your point or he won't ask you again, but either way your problem is solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Not a problem but seeing as I'm posting anyway, is there a follower-equivalent of that 'rotten fish' handhold when a (usually good) lead holds your hand with minimal contact and as if he is holding something unpleasant and smelly?

    I suppose you could always just keep a loose hold so he jerks his hand out of yours instead of jerking your arm around.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Regarding the final point, I see nothing wrong with minimal contact and it shouldn't be taken as you thinking he doesn't want to go near you. Leading doesn't require loads of contact, if any at all. One finger leading is as effective, if not more, than a fuller handhold.

    As for the others, go as led and be frank if needs be. Leaders occasionally have to experience similar.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Firstly, you need to accept that as a follower, your options are pretty limited - there's only so much you can do to affect the dance without basically sabotaging it.

    Secondly, why not simply tell these people about the problems you're having following them? If you do it correctly ("I love dancing with you, but..." type of thing, men are real suckers for flattery), it should be easy enough.

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Lead C’s moves rotate me in a continuous one-way circle around him. By the end of the track I feel a bit peculiar. The moves are normal moves, so I don’t quite get where the rotation thing comes from. If they are very swappy-side-ish moves (e.g. a three-part octopus) I start remembering that I'm prone to travel sickness!
    I’ve tried being really careful about where I ‘land’, so I've tried making sure my turns are a proper 360 degrees no more no less, and my swaps are exactly 180 degrees, but I still seem to be revolving round him. I'm fine with turns and stuff normally, but honestly the walls and floor feel like they are beginning to heave about.
    I have to admit I'm a bit guilty of this when I lead. The trouble is that MJ has a natural rotation to it, so it's very easy to go with the flow...

    Firstly, have you told him that you get a bit dizzy? You could ask him if he wouldn't mind trying to lead more slotted moves, in order that it wouldn't make you so giddy?

    The other plan is to make your steps really smaller - and so surreptitiously making him dance around you! (I've done this, and it's quite amusing )

    Just another thought - do you suffer on spins, too? Have you tried spotting?

    Hope you get it sorted, anyway! Good luck!

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    One finger leading is as effective, if not more, than a fuller handhold.
    I don't agree. What's your evidence to support this assertion?

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't agree. What's your evidence to support this assertion?
    You could always start a poll Rob, to see how many ladies prefer one finger and how many prefer the full hand.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    You could always start a poll Rob, to see how many ladies prefer one finger and how many prefer the full hand.
    I heard you needed the full Kenny Everett to feel a good connection.
    Last edited by robd; 27th-August-2008 at 10:28 PM.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't agree. What's your evidence to support this assertion?
    Your negative reply.

    @Cru - lol.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Why not follow what he is unwittingly leading, and jump or step to the side when he jerks his arm that way?

    Fully agree. Fighting a lead like that will only hurt - if you go with it, and follow every tiniest thing he leads, he's got to at least wonder why you're doing that. Remember - us leads find it very easy to believe that all followers are following us so well because we're such amazingly great leaders. If you want to point out that you're actually compensating a whole lot for our bad leading, well - many of us need that shoved right in our faces. We're not good with subtlety.... (in general)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Your negative reply.
    Hmmm. So because an extremely experienced dancer disagrees with you, you take that as evidence supporting your argument?

    Your logic intrigues me, sir...

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    I have to admit I'm a bit guilty of this when I lead. The trouble is that MJ has a natural rotation to it, so it's very easy to go with the flow...
    And quite apart from anything else, rotational dancing is perfectly acceptable (as is slotted of course) in the MJ world. This isn't WCS !!!

    As to side to side movements of the forearm, not really sure how that works ? Don't think I've ever seen that, outside of maybe some WCS prepping which funnily enough involves some sorta side to side arm movements on the beat

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    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    As to side to side movements of the forearm, not really sure how that works ?
    Certainly, in class, many will do this to tune into the music in the lead up to the countdown. (Vastly preferable to the vertical death bounce.)

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post

    Don't think I've ever seen that, outside of maybe some WCS prepping which funnily enough involves some sorta side to side arm movements on the beat
    I hope you're not suggesting that prepping is the sole prerogative of WCS'ers.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post

    As to side to side movements of the forearm, not really sure how that works ? Don't think I've ever seen that, outside of maybe some WCS prepping which funnily enough involves some sorta side to side arm movements on the beat
    That's one of the worst things a lead can do to a follower in WCS, I think it stems from jive where it is perfectly acceptable to lead with a side to side action (especially when leading an Arkansaw? where a strong side to side lead is needed) but in WCS it can force an inexperienced follower into an ugly shoulder swivel or a crossed feet walk, which is a definite NO,NO.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    That's one of the worst things a lead can do to a follower in WCS, I think it stems from jive where it is perfectly acceptable to lead with a side to side action (especially when leading an Arkansaw? where a strong side to side lead is needed) but in WCS it can force an inexperienced follower into an ugly shoulder swivel or a crossed feet walk, which is a definite NO,NO.
    I have a feeling you and TA Guy may be talking about something entirely different.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Firstly, you need to accept that as a follower, your options are pretty limited - there's only so much you can do to affect the dance without basically sabotaging it.

    Secondly, why not simply tell these people about the problems you're having following them? If you do it correctly ("I love dancing with you, but..." type of thing, men are real suckers for flattery), it should be easy enough.
    Agree with this. There isn't much you can do to 'counter' these sort of things. The lead moving the hand esp is probably a habit developed to mark the beat and he probably isn't even aware he is doing it. If you're used to following what the leader is doing and they do this, then part of you knows its not a lead but part of you wants to follow - you basically have to switch out of pure 'follower' mode and try to work out what he is trying to lead and ignore the hand movement, but it is very distracting.

    The options are probably to put up with the bits you don't like about certain leaders, as presumably you do enjoy dancing with them aside from these things, or tell them about the bits that are causing problems - but that depends on how well you know them and how you put it.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Your negative reply.
    Oh dear. So, no evidence at all?

    And I guess you are still erroneously confusing the number of fingers used for leading with increased potential for yanking and general heaviness of lead as you were previously?


    And just to be pedantic, regardless of whether you prefer one finger or many you are not leading with the finger(s), you are providing a point of connection. Your lead will encompass a number of things including body positioning, use of follow's existing momentum, reliance on follow's knowledge of conventions of the dance, etc.
    Last edited by robd; 28th-August-2008 at 08:43 AM.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Regarding the final point, I see nothing wrong with minimal contact and it shouldn't be taken as you thinking he doesn't want to go near you. Leading doesn't require loads of contact, if any at all.
    To quote Tom Hanks in Big, "Where's the fun in that?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    One finger leading is as effective, if not more, than a fuller handhold.
    Shamefully, I have to agree with Rob yet again. The more contact you have with your partner, the easier it is to communicate your intentions. I suspect it's more that some of the more experienced dancers - well, OK, intermediates then - do occasionally lead with one finger.

    Although one-finger leading is good practice, as is no-finger leading for that matter.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't agree. What's your evidence to support this assertion?
    His wealth of experience clearly; by what evidence do you support his need to give any evidence? Surely we should take steven666's comments as some sort of official jivestandard by now - he should write it all down though.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Your logic intrigues me, sir...
    Can I suggest you are intrigued easily ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    And quite apart from anything else, rotational dancing is perfectly acceptable (as is slotted of course) in the MJ world. This isn't WCS !!!
    Not if it is not led or led by accident, which seems to be common. I had a dance once with someone who insisted on travelling around me, I assumed she had just danced with moondancers Lead C and picked up the v.bad habit. I ended up dancing in a very small slot to get her to stay still, but it still didnt work, she'd pull her way out of it

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Although one-finger leading is good practice, as is no-finger leading for that matter.
    A good dancer will dance with as many fingers as needed

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Not if it is not led or led by accident, which seems to be common. I had a dance once with someone who insisted on travelling around me, I assumed she had just danced with moondancers Lead C and picked up the v.bad habit. I ended up dancing in a very small slot to get her to stay still, but it still didnt work, she'd pull her way out of it
    Cross-body leads, that sorts it out. I've got dozens of the beggars available, mostly nicked from salsa.

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    Re: Resistance is useless! – or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    To quote Tom Hanks in Big, "Where's the fun in that?"


    .
    Absolutely DJ.... I agree with you. Where is the fun in one finger dancing. Where is the fun in no contact. Also would like to add that cross body leads are by far the loveliest moves in my opinion. They give full eye contact, body contact just here and there and a connection. They also allow the lead the opportunity to finger hold, hand hold or body hold.. i love em.

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