OK, so I have been doing Ceroc since end of April, nearly a whole 4 months! My wife and I go to club nights once or twice a week and usually a freestyle somewhere at weekends. Having been given the ceroc party line about asking for a dance and that it is not the done thing to say no I have danced with loads of lovely ladies and had some really good times.
However, after reading loads of posts on here and listening to various discussions/conversations by ladies it would seem that PERHAPS the ladies are secretly not as happy about the 'always say yes' mandate as Ceroc would have us believe. References to 'plebs', 'numpty' and other interesting descriptions of 'less-able' dancers.
Given that I include myself in the 'less-able' category given my 3+ month pedigree (and 2 left feet) I would like to understand what people really think. I have this vision of ladies muttering under their breath about 'hell freezing over' after dancing with me!
So come on ladies, be honest, what do you really think about dancing with newbies and less competent dancers?
Last edited by marko; 19th-August-2008 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Typo
A "numpty" is, generally, someone with no common sense who does stupid things on the dancefloor. Do you have common sense? Do you try and avoid collisions with other dancers (quite a tough one early on, but an attempt at it is good)? Consideration for your dance partner? Do you yank on their arm, do you "forget" to wash/use deodorant, do you perve at their cleavage?
If you do your best to give your partner the best dance you can, then you're not a numpty, and I'm sure that the local ladies will be happy to dance with you!
I don't have a problem dancing with beginners/early intermediates. I might not have a good night if I only danced with guys who were complete beginners (one month or less), but if they've made it as far as intermediates, chances are they're fairly enthusiastic and that can go a long way in the enjoyment of the dance, even if they don't have a huge range of moves they can execute perfectly.
So leave the paranoia at home and just go and have fun
I am not a ladyee but I can pass on my won partners thoughts about dancing with newbies.
1) don't sleaze over women. You will find lots of discussion on the forum about it so you can go have a look on other threads for definitions and peoples thoughts. Doesn't matter how good or bad you are if you sleaze over women you will never be welcome.
2) Always have a shower before going to events and take spare shirts to change into if you are likely to be more than a little damp. Again it doesn't matter how good you are it is a complete no no for the ladies.
My partners thoughts
Dancing with newbies can be hell if they either don't lead or if they yank you about. Leaders vaguely wafting their hand about and expecting the follower to just autopilot through the move just show her that the leader doesn't yet understand their role. Yanking and pushing and shoving just hurts the woman. If the newbie is clear and smooth then she will find it a joy to dance with them even if they only know 3 moves. My partner and every follower we have ever talked to would rather that a leader be able to lead 3 moves very well rather than hundreds of moves badly. Smoothness, clarity and flow are key. NEVER bounce your hand up and down in time with the music (or allow your follower to do it to you).
Newbies are expected to be rough around the edges but a feeling that they are thinking about what they are doing and want to improve gives one the feeling that they are a newbie dancer that is worth investing some time in their development.
My partner tells me that you can tell after 5 weeks whether someone is listening and learning or if they are just turning up each week.
We were all beginners at MJ dancing at one time, and I remember what that was like. I am also going through the beginner stage in my learning AT. I feel intimidated at times and think that people won't want to dance with me, forever having a crisis of confidence, but I keep on going and I don't give up.
With regard to your question, for me it is a matter of not how many moves you know, but how you do/dance them that counts. If I am dancing with someone who only knows a handful of moves, but dances them preferrably smoothly, likes to have fun with the dance, and give a smile, nothing rough or yanking, and time is given for the follower to finish the move before the leader starts next one, then this is nice for me.
Good luck and hope you enjoy your dancing.
if you love the life you live then you'll get a lot more done
Interesting comment Chef. Loads of ladies do this and I was beginning to think it was a requirement to give some indication that you are staying in the groove or leading with rhythm etc. I will stop immediately
Thanks for the comments so far. Just like to say that I am not paranoid (even if they are out to get me ), I just want to make the dancing as much fun for any partner I dance with as it is for me.
I will dance with almost anyone, even you marko for me if the pearson you are daning with is pleasent, up beat, enthusiastic, happy to lean, open minded, that all you can ask.
I recently danced with a guy 'up north' as we were getting on the floor he said I need to get more dancing like this in im going to SP (it was a slower blues track) I asked how long he had been dancing? (2 years) this was his 1st weekender and he was going to go in the blues room, I said shall I help with this track, helping prepare you what it will be like in the blues room? OK he said..........flipping hec !!!! what a fight!!!! at one point he said GIVE ME YOUR HAND ......... why I said.....cos I can't lead you if you don't.......yes that's right I said and so it went like this all through the track, at the end I said good luck at SP you'll need it.
This year begginer is next years expert.
and BTW your fine we all start some where which has already been posted, don't be put off with some of the 'up there own ar$$' comment you can read on this forum.
Of course people will moan when a dance they have had is less than enjoyable, but it doesnt mean they will turn people down or refuse to take part in the YES culture. The YES culture is nice, beginners need to dance. Its only ever a problem when there are too many beginners and the better dancers don't enjoy dancing as much as they would if there were less. Life - its a balancing act innit
its probably me been my normal and dopy self
well, the track had stops & starts, faster and slower bits in it and he just wanted to bounce me trough his normal routine the one he's been doing for every track at the same speed for each track for the past two years.
Yes, to all the above ( just spelt differently )
If the person's got the right attitude and can laugh at their mistakes and makes an effort to learn, then I'm very happy to dance with them.
Yes, I confess, I don't 'love' dancing with absolutely everyone but its hardly ever to do with their level of dancing
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It is not a requirement to bounce your hand up and down in time to the music but so many beginners (and not so beginners) do it that the ladies start to do it back to you you even if you are not leading an up and down bounce. It may be helpful to some people at the start to mark the beat in this way but it is something that persists even when you progress to the stage where you no longer need it and have forgotten your origional reason for doing it.
It will hinder your onward progress. Ideally, if your follower is following perfectly then your hand bounce should result in your follower jumping up and down in time with the music. Of course it is unlikely that this is what you really want happen so almost all followers learn to automatically ignore these movements of your hand. What you would have done is to teach all of your followers to ignore your leading hand movement unless it is really big.
This is what the ladies seem to be saying to me about the leads that they enjoy. A good lead has smoothness and clarity. There is no unintended movement of the leading hand. When it does move it is with confidence that is not forceful and you wait for follower to very nearly complete a movement before preparing to lead the next movement (note I said movement rather than move). This is the key to 3 moves led well.
Try leading a blindfolded follower when there is no music around. Her whole world is about following her hand and moving her feet underneath herself - and that is what you must understand.
Have fun.
Marko baby...Dance like you are naked in your bathroom, laugh at yourself and if it all goes to a bag of snakes, have a giggle and carry on regardless.
When you dance nail 7 or 8 moves and stick to them and then try to add 1 more move on an annual basis.
It is not about the moves it is all about connection, fun and flowing like liquid chocolate.
Having a dance should be like wiping your ar*e with silk, very very pleasurable.
Everybody would prefer to dance with someone who has 7 or 8 moves executed well than some one who has 69 moves executed badly.
Allways look into your partners eyes and smile and have a good time. If you are both enjoying it, you not leave the floor.
Ps dont take it too serious mate it is meant to be a pleasurable experience and not a trial.
DTS XXX XX
Attitude counts for a lot, I'd rather dance with a less experienced dancer who is open to learning than a more experienced dancer who wants to show off with lots of complicated moves!
As said, the things that put women off are leads hurting them, bumping them into other people, smelly, pervy etc. And you get that with experienced dancers as well as beginners!
I do get guys almost apologising in advance for not knowing enough moves etc and I tell them it doesn't matter. Truthfully, if they are having fun, enjoying the music and enjoying dancing with me, then I'm going to have a good dance with them.
Just recently I've changed the rules. I still say that guys must say "yes" - because a gentleman would never refuse a lady and we only have gentlemen at our classes. I say that the same rule applies to the ladies. If the guy is a gentleman she should always say "yes". However, if the lady thinks that, based on pervious (sic) form the guy is not a gentleman she should not be embarassed to say "no". And that includes guys who are not gentle as well as guys who are not gentlemanly.
I fully support the advice that you should learn a few moves well. It's a bit like singing, you know if someone is a good singer from the first note. And you know if a guy is a good dancer from the first beat.
You could also say it's a bit like kissing. You know if you want to carry on from the first brush of their lips. But give the slightest indication that you're not impressed and some guys keep trying more and more difficult things and pushing and pulling harder to try to impress you - when all they're really doing is making you long for the end of the track
I have two pet hates, Marko - suggest trying not to do these things:
Obviously looking around the room and everywhere but at me in order to scope out your next dance or to be sure your favourite PYT is watching you
(this is different to passing eyes around the floor to be sure where the safe dance space is - believe me it's easy to tell the difference)
Doing a move 12 times because I didn't do what you wanted on the first 11, after the 3rd perhaps best to assume it's not going to work and move on because I honestly don't know it or you're honestly not leading it properly / well enough.
aint that the truth.
DTS you are truly a 'GOD'
I totaly agree with this post, ho how I wish there were more with your attitude.
and no lady wan't a 69 done badly
and guy's please, please remember why you started to dance in the 1st place? its differnt for differnt people, was is social? wasit confidence? what ever hang on the that thought........and DTS is soooooo right remember its a dance
Do you I havn't noticed or is it just mine you'v missed
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"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
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