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Thread: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Ideally leaders would also be taught to lead movements, not moves.
    To be fair, this is what has happened in most, if not all the Ceroc classes I have attended i.e. 'Take your left hand to left shoulder, hand on hip, turn the lady out, step back' I guess you could argue about how much of that is teaching people how to 'lead' the movements as opposed to simply instructing the couple which position to assume next but nonetheless it's still about movements not moves.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    To be fair, this is what has happened in most, if not all the Ceroc classes I have attended i.e. 'Take your left hand to left shoulder, hand on hip, turn the lady out, step back' I guess you could argue about how much of that is teaching people how to 'lead' the movements as opposed to simply instructing the couple which position to assume next but nonetheless it's still about movements not moves.
    Well in a phrase book you are told 'make this sound, then make this sound.' What you don't learn is how those sounds relate to each other and how to modify their syntax to create your own new phrases.

    That is not to say phrase books don't have their place. Its probably the best method to get people managing themselves from day one in a new country.

    Its just that apart from a few retired Brits living in France and Spain, people understand the limits of stock phrases. In dancing however I find that many people are unaware that more refined conversation is not only possible, but learnable, achievable, infinitely more satisfying and eventually, much more valued.
    Last edited by Amir; 11th-August-2008 at 10:43 PM.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Inspired by this thread, my partner and I gave this a go (that is, I tried following, she tried leading me) in the beginner's class at Daventry. It was lots of fun! First observations: Ceroc feels more physically demanding for the follower and more mentally demanding for the lead.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_L View Post
    Ceroc feels more physically demanding for the follower and more mentally demanding for the lead.
    Good point, thinking about this, I would say the follow has a greater "here and now" response time, and the leader has a more, "what next and how to clearly communicate that".

    There is a huge difference in what I can lead to a follow who has a mindset of "oh, yes, I recognise this move, and I need to do this next" compared with a follow who is "open to whatever, just lead me".

    If the follow does not "switch off and just follow" I then revert back to "normal moves" and forget musicality, play etc.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    To be fair, this is what has happened in most, if not all the Ceroc classes I have attended i.e. 'Take your left hand to left shoulder, hand on hip, turn the lady out, step back' I guess you could argue about how much of that is teaching people how to 'lead' the movements as opposed to simply instructing the couple which position to assume next but nonetheless it's still about movements not moves.
    Thinking about this a bit more, from the other classes I’ve taken my recollection is that much of the instruction is along the same lines but with the important difference of adding “how” to do it most of the time. For the most part people start to get it after a while.

    In MJ though, even in classes where I have seen the “how” taught, there seems to be much less of an uptake on the information. I have to admit, I’m at a loss to explain why. I should also note that I’ve seen the difference at the beginner level so I don’t think it’s just the case of MJ intermediateitis.

    My working theory is that the more visually impressive and the greater the reputation of the teacher, the more people seem prepared to listen. I’ve seen this personally when my views on musicality and musical structures were brushed off lightly by a number of my peers at a party, and then treated as a revelation when a visiting instructor said the same things almost verbatim a couple of weeks later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    Its incredible to watch how many people zone out as soon as a class turns a little more abstract.
    Perhaps if you were less accomplished you wouldn’t see this at all, because if they zoned out on the abstract stuff at least that shows they were paying attention before.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Perhaps if you were less accomplished you wouldn’t see this at all, because if they zoned out on the abstract stuff at least that shows they were paying attention before.
    Ha ha. Could be, but actually I observed this watching other classes. Anyway, sometimes it is our fault by introducing abstractions too early in the class, or not 'selling' the benefits of understanding something that is initially not visible.

    The hardest thing I think is when people have crude methods that kind of get the job done. How do you convince them there is a better way and its worth learning? Its like the guy in that cave with the ideal shapes or something, you know that Plato story with the shadows, or was it hand puppets?

    Anyway, back on thread, for me personally knowing how to follow has been the most important key to learning to lead. One major reason is because it avoids the chinese olympics whisper affect:

    If someone explains how to lead something then they need to translate a physical sensation into words. Then the student has to translate it back. Often what the teacher thinks they are doing and what they are doing are not the same anyway.

    If you can just follow the movement your body learns the correct sensation and often your instinctual attempt and recreating it is much closer to the original than focusing on positions, muscle tension and spacial relationships.

    The other thing I've learnt is that men should wash more.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Well after reading this thread I think I might give following a go. I've felt for a while that my lead, while (hopefully) not bad, could still use plenty of improvement, and this might just be the way to do it.

    My question is though, how to start? Find a person to lead me that I'm comfortable with be that male of female and just have some instruction on the side, or jump in and be a follow for a beginners class? (despite the usual excess of women)

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    If you can just follow the movement your body learns the correct sensation and often your instinctual attempt and recreating it is much closer to the original than focusing on positions, muscle tension and spacial relationships.
    I think followers probably have more of an appreciation of how, one move(ment) can seamlessly flow into another move(ment) if the leader allows the follower to finish her momentum and then leads the next move(ment) 'using' the flow of how the followers body naturally goes.

    I think this is one of the keys to what makes a person 'feel' good to dance with
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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I think followers probably have more of an appreciation of how, one move(ment) can seamlessly flow into another move(ment) if the leader allows the follower to finish her momentum and then leads the next move(ment) 'using' the flow of how the followers body naturally goes.

    I think this is one of the keys to what makes a person 'feel' good to dance with
    I hadn't really thought of it like that, but it's obvious now you've said it. It's definitely something I've realised unconsciously.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boi View Post
    My question is though, how to start? Find a person to lead me that I'm comfortable with be that male of female and just have some instruction on the side, or jump in and be a follow for a beginners class? (despite the usual excess of women)
    Personally I just jumped in and danced with people I knew. I think a combination of this and maybe trying to dance with some of the taxi dancers who can give lots of help. There is still a certain amount of fear in some peoples eyes if they see men dancing with men especially at MJ events.

    I was in a WCS swing class dancing as a follower when I was being led by a guy, I could see he was very uncertain about dancing with another man even though he new who my girlfriend was at that time, I found it very funny and bizarre at the same time

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boi View Post
    Well after reading this thread I think I might give following a go. I've felt for a while that my lead, while (hopefully) not bad, could still use plenty of improvement, and this might just be the way to do it.

    My question is though, how to start? Find a person to lead me that I'm comfortable with be that male of female and just have some instruction on the side, or jump in and be a follow for a beginners class? (despite the usual excess of women)

    I can help hun, i'm the one who get lost of people dance with guy's and I do the asking any matching up, although it looks like that gets forgotten see you Friday and we will talk

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boi View Post
    My question is though, how to start?
    I kind of started by accident. When dancing with some of the lady leads they backled a bit too much so I just swapped and let them get on with it It then progressed into complete tracks with some of the lady leads, it was only last week I did a complete beginners class as a fixed couple with a lady who was new to leading. I wouldn't join in the rotation as a follow. I've yet to dance with a male lead, I wouldn't ask first either but I would accept if they asked

    I'm very new to following, still at the < 6 week beginner stage. It could be coincidence but since starting to dance as a follow I had some very nice compliments paid to me about how I lead and how easy I am to follow

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    I kind of started by accident. When dancing with some of the lady leads they backled a bit too much so I just swapped and let them get on with it It then progressed into complete tracks with some of the lady leads,
    Says it all Keefy, says it all.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    I kind of started by accident. When dancing with some of the lady leads they backled a bit too much so I just swapped and let them get on with it It then progressed into complete tracks with some of the lady leads, it was only last week I did a complete beginners class as a fixed couple with a lady who was new to leading. I wouldn't join in the rotation as a follow. I've yet to dance with a male lead, I wouldn't ask first either but I would accept if they asked

    I'm very new to following, still at the < 6 week beginner stage. It could be coincidence but since starting to dance as a follow I had some very nice compliments paid to me about how I lead and how easy I am to follow
    Dancing in rotation as a follow is an experience if only to see how different people act so differently to each other like I found out at Camber VLV. May try it again at SP.

    And if you ever see me, you can always ask me to lead you.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Dancing in rotation as a follow is an experience if only to see how different people act so differently to each other like I found out at Camber VLV. May try it again at SP.

    .
    I will if you will

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I will if you will
    Any other willing volunteers? DTS?

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Any other willing volunteers? DTS?
    I will dance with you boys, as a lead or follow. DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Any other willing volunteers? DTS?
    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    I will dance with you boys, as a lead or follow. DTS XXX XXX
    It looks like me, DTS and Steven666 will be up for a bit of following at one of the classes at SP, do we all have to paint our nails


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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    It looks like me, DTS and Steven666 will be up for a bit of following at one of the classes at SP, do we all have to paint our nails

    Leave the nail painting but we can do a class at Sp as followers, all 3 of us. We will pick a class and see what happens my lovelys. DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Leave the nail painting but we can do a class at Sp as followers, all 3 of us. We will pick a class and see what happens my lovelys. DTS XXX XXX
    It's almost worth going to SP and joining in just to see what happens Will definately ask you for a dance DTS next time I'm in Stevenage, must be due another visit there...

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