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Thread: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

  1. #41
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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    In my opinion you can only lead properly with someone who knows how to follow properly.

    So my answer to that question would be yes, except that the followers should be taught to follow movements, not moves.
    Nice differentiation
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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    In my opinion you can only lead properly with someone who knows how to follow properly.

    So my answer to that question would be yes, except that the followers should be taught to follow movements, not moves.
    may be we need a “followers should be taught to follow movements, not moves.” Campaign

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Followers should not just do the moves. but as Amir says should follow the lead.

    When I am in a playfull kittenish mood I lead all sort of weird stuff, I basically make it up to the music and there might not be any moves in there at all, just playing, a good follower will make it look fantastic.

    Ref Mel and Tonic wedgie lead last Southport, lead her by her pants.

    DTS XXX XX

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    Can anybody see any reasons why I should not dance as a follow sometimes?
    Can't think of one... If you were dancing exclusively as a follow, over a long period of time, you might find your overall leading doesn't improve much, because you're not spending time improving your leading.

    But I can't see how occasional follow dances would hurt, and as I said, I think they'd help.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Ref Mel and Tonic wedgie lead last Southport, lead her by her pants.
    Thats nothing - I've seen Rob Coward do a catapult with a g-string before

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    If moves are being taught correctly should there be any need to teach people how to follow them?
    We're back to the argument 'it's always the leader's fault' here - which is just plain incorrect.

    You're assuming dancing as a follow doesn't require any technique... It's rubbish of course, in terms of individual technique (balance, frame, managing own feet, weight changes etc), in terms of partnership technique (i.e. what do you follow when you follow, how do you maintain connection), and in terms of dance technique (different implicit rules for different dances).
    Last edited by Caro; 8th-August-2008 at 10:50 AM.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    So my answer to that question would be yes, except that the followers should be taught to follow movements, not moves.
    Leaders often don't seem to get this. I get 'oh, you're scary, you know all the moves' or 'I might get the moves wrong' or 'I don't know enough moves' as apologies from leaders and I have to explain on a regular basis that I don't pay that much attention to moves, I follow movements.

    So maybe learning to follow can teach leaders that followers don't follow 'moves'.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Leaders often don't seem to get this. I get 'oh, you're scary, you know all the moves' or 'I might get the moves wrong' or 'I don't know enough moves' as apologies from leaders and I have to explain on a regular basis that I don't pay that much attention to moves, I follow movements.

    So maybe learning to follow can teach leaders that followers don't follow 'moves'.
    I sometimes find it the opposite when the follower states that they don't know many moves. All a bit strange. I try to hint that they arn't supposed to learn the moves, just how to follow, though the people in this mindset tend to be those who don't listen to techniques etc in classes so I'm talking to deaf ears.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    ....., though the people in this mindset tend to be those who don't listen to techniques etc in classes so I'm talking to deaf ears.
    Sometimes

    But I often get my best dancers from ladies who say “I am just a beginner” or “I am not very good”

    But that may be because they don’t realised what a poor leader I am

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Sometimes

    But I often get my best dancers from ladies who say “I am just a beginner” or “I am not very good”

    But that may be because they don’t realised what a poor leader I am
    I agree but I'm more referring to the type of dancer who's been doing it for years and yet it's still all about plodding through set movements.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Thats nothing - I've seen Rob Coward do a catapult with a g-string before
    That is impressive I will try that with some unsuspecting victim at the coming Southport.

    Mel and Tonic... Be afraid, be very afraid.

    Might give it a go with UnderPar. will need to start doing some press ups before hand.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Leaders often don't seem to get this....
    Ideally leaders would also be taught to lead movements, not moves.

    Learning moves is a bit like learning phrases in a new language. If you're planning a short weekend trip to Paris then maybe all you want is a few memorized phrases to get you by, even if you pronounce them badly and don't know what the individual words of the phrases mean.

    But when you decide to emigrate to France for a few years it makes sense to learn individual words so you can construct your own sentences and actually contribute in a meaningful way.

    Most anyone reading this has probably danced or will dance for a few years. I'm letting you know you have emigrated to partner dance land. You may as well buy a dictionary. You'll have more fun and be more appreciated.

    And stop wearing that stupid beret. It doesn't make you sound any more French.


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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Ideally leaders would also be taught to lead movements, not moves.

    Learning moves is a bit like learning phrases in a new language. If you're planning a short weekend trip to Paris then maybe all you want is a few memorized phrases to get you by, even if you pronounce them badly and don't know what the individual words of the phrases mean.

    But when you decide to emigrate to France for a few years it makes sense to learn individual words so you can construct your own sentences and actually contribute in a meaningful way.

    Most anyone reading this has probably danced or will dance for a few years. I'm letting you know you have emigrated to partner dance land. You may as well buy a dictionary. You'll have more fun and be more appreciated.
    So if in a beginners' class we are learning short phrases, and in intermediate we are learning more complex sentences, where do we go to learn the individual words?

    And where can I buy a dictionary?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    ...And should West Coast Swingers learn Patternments ?

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    So if in a beginners' class we are learning short phrases, and in intermediate we are learning more complex sentences, where do we go to learn the individual words?

    And where can I buy a dictionary?
    Thats actually a really tricky question, depends on where you live, what your budget is, who you have access to, what style you dance etc.

    The short answer is you can buy a good dictionary from a good teacher.
    Finding good teachers is a life long ongoing process.

    Once you do though, a quick route is private lessons.

    But also, although most int/adv classes teach complex sentences, good teachers will explain at least parts of these sentences in terms of individual movements. It is up to you to apply a new movement technique in as many places as possible, extracting it from its original sentence.

    Not wanting to get into the boring and pointless 'is MJ inferior' debate, most of the good coaching I got on this was from tango, wcs and lindy hop classes.
    Coaching on breaking down non lead movement was classical ballet. There are probably many other sources for this knowledge. Anyway, just knowing what you are looking for you are more likely to find it, partly just by asking you local organizer to bring teachers that focus on this area.

    Its hard to teach group classes that focus exclusively on this area since you always have to put up with 'didn't teach any moves' complaints. Kevin and Emily stand out as doing it well, in my opinion. I get close sometimes, but almost always cave into the pressure and teach at least one of what I hope is a crowd pleasing step.

    Also, if you listen carefully to your local teacher you may find that they actually mention more on movement technique than you think. Its incredible to watch how many people zone out as soon as a class turns a little more abstract.

    Candle Sticks. Larder flies. Mahogany. Cigar. What do you get if you cross a car with a pussy? A Vulvo.
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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Ideally leaders would also be taught to lead movements, not moves.
    I immediately thought 'Tango' when I read that (and yes I know some AT classes can be rather 'move' based but still less so than MJ).

    Its the nature of MJ to be moves based, at least initially - and I think moving away from that is part of the progression and development in learning to lead and follow. And therefore learning to follow might help leaders start to take apart the moves and think about the movement.

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Its hard to teach group classes that focus exclusively on this area since you always have to put up with 'didn't teach any moves' complaints. .)

    I went one of Amir’s workshop and we only did variations of the first move. it was one of the best workshops I have ever attended . No complaints from any one, apart from, it was over all too soon
    (Amir was happy to go into extra time but we had to vacate the room)

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Its the nature of MJ to be moves based,.



    I think it’s the nature of MJ Classes, rather than MJ. In my experience, MJ teachers are normally up on a stage, you sometimes can not see what they are doing, or how they move

    In tango classes, the teachers are normally on the floor and often dancing with you. They tend to avoid followers learning a routine, by teaching several variations and encouraging the lead to vary the move

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Every 1 wants to be a lady somtimes

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    Re: How exactly does dancing as a follower improve your lead?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    In tango classes, the teachers are normally on the floor and often dancing with you. They tend to avoid followers learning a routine, by teaching several variations and encouraging the lead to vary the move
    That's true - but the ones who really, really focus on 'the words' (good description, that) are sometimes dismissed as tedious, at least by followers. To benefit from a class that really delivers the basics, the student has to be very proactive - actively seeking the information she or he wants to have, all the time, and not leaving it up to the teacher to provide it. But if you are that sort of student there's a lot to be gained from finding that sort of class.

    Back on topic, or nearly - I took an AT class as a leader recently (I had not led before, but had followed for about 18 months). I found the brief period of leading gave me a more satisfying conception of the dance as a whole and helped my musicality and connection. It also improved my footwork, which I wasn't expecting at all. A little lightbulb went off "oh, my feet should go more like this." It was only a beginners' class but I certainly found that I could re-use a lot of skills that I had been able to concentrate on and perfect as a follower. From my experience of following, I can say that it allows you to work on certain things seperately, that as a leader you would always have to combine.

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