Ethnicity of ceroc goers

[Stuart M]

But Skye has a permanent bridge and is now part of mainland Britain In fact, doesn't Anglesey have one too?

Ah, this is the Hamish Haswell-Smith* definition of an island, isn't it? Daft if you ask me. Anglesey has two Bridges to it according to Wiki.

*HHS wrote a book a few years back, purporting to produce a definitive list of Scottish Islands akin to the Munro list of mountains. Problem was, he decided that an island wasn't an island if a) it was less than 40 hectares in area at high tide, or b) connected to somewhere else by a bridge/causeway/strand at low tide. Thus you ended up with a list that excludes arguably the 2 most famous Scottish islands, Skye and Staffa. Bit like saying Snowdon isn't a mountain because there's a railway to the summit.

[Dreadful Scathe]

There are no mountains in Wales

[Lou]

There are no mountains in Wales

Didn't Hugh Grant do a movie about that....?

[David Bailey]

Then surely all nationalities are social inventions

Well, yes.

- so "Scottish" is a social/ethnic grouping, British is a political label made to cover many social/ethnic groups.

No, Scottish is also a political label. As is "European", or "Finchley resident" for that matter.

-Its not really weird - it has always been done that way. The seperate nations that make up the UK have always been seperate in many ways.

The "weird" bit I was referring to was grouping England and Wales together.

[Baruch]

All nationalities are political inventions

Not so. Nations are social/cultural entities. States are political inventions.

So I'm currently a subject (I really wish I could say "citizen" instead) of a state known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but that is not my nation nor do I have any national loyalty to it. Wales is my nation, and Welsh is my nationality.

I see - hmmm, it looks more like a PR stunt to me, to be honest, I doubt it'll happen. Too close to ".com", and too much like an advert for Plaid Cymru.

Why an advert for Plaid Cymru? Because of the word "Cymru"? That's the name of our country. Plaid Cymru just means The Party of Wales when translated. Saying that .cym would be an advert for Plaid Cymru is just as daft as saying that .co.uk is an advert for the UK Independence Party.

That is weird, isn't it? It's also weird that there are separate censuses for NI and Scotland, but a combined one for England & Wales.

I think there should either be 1 census, or 4. 3 makes no sense...

I agree. The reason is historical. Some time after Wales was conquered by the English, it was annexed and thereafter regarded (by the English) as part of England. Hence our "official" status in English law as a principality rather than a separate nation. A concerted campaign to eradicate our language, culture and national identity followed (as set out in the Laws in Wales Acts, 1535-42) and was only officially ended with the repeal of the Laws in Wales Acts in the Welsh Language Act in 1993.

That's why, when we voted in favour of devolution, Scotland (which joined the Union as a sovereign state) was given a Parliament while Wales (still regarded by the UK establishment as a principality, not a nation) was only given an Assembly with far less power. How's that for injustice?

So the reason we had to share a census with England was that we are regarded by the legal establishment as the same entity.

I wlike to think that the great steps that the GB/UK has made post WW2 to integrate people is not something that should be ignored just because of some need to associate to some ancient tribal ancestry.

The problem is that the integration you speak of is not done on a "UK" or "British" basis, but on a firmly English basis. To most people within the UK (and outside it, for that matter) British = English. Many English people of my acquaintance even use the terms "Britain" and "England" interchangeably. Rest assured that we in Wales do not. Nor, I would think, do the Scots.

For example, there is talk of future immigrants having to prove proficiency in the English language, while the other languages of the UK (Welsh, Scots, Gaelic and Cornish) are ignored. Where would that leave a Patagonian who speaks only Welsh and Spanish? UK-wide news broadcasts by the British Broadcasting Corporation tend to include stories about subjects that in these days of devolution apply to England only, while Welsh and Scottish interest stories are generally restricted to their respective "regional" news programmes. I could go on.

There are no mountains in Wales

[Stuart M]

~ Welsh rant ~

It's those bastards in Brussels, you know. They're taking over everything.

[Baruch]

European rant

Nope. They couldn't take over a 30-year-old Lada with engine trouble!

[David Bailey]

Not so. Nations are social/cultural entities. States are political inventions.

Bit of an artificial distinction there I think - basically, they're both artificial entities which have been created by groups of people coming together and saying "We're a nation / state / whatever".

Whether you call that process "culture", "society", or "politics", that's all any grouping is, really.

That's why, when we voted in favour of devolution, Scotland (which joined the Union as a sovereign state) was given a Parliament while Wales (still regarded by the UK establishment as a principality, not a nation) was only given an Assembly with far less power. How's that for injustice?

Massive inconsistency, certainly. But then, that's the UK for you, it's a whole hodge-podge of legal inconsistencies.

[Jhutch]

It's fascinating, as it uses DNA analysis to trace a migration of people from the Basque country and Spain into Ireland, Wales & Scotland, and highlights a close affinity between Scandinavians & the English (attributed to the Vikings). In addition, Bryan Sykes (Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford) has also shown that the Anglo Saxons made a significant contribution to the genetic makeup of England (although estimated to be approximately just under 20% - even in Southern England). Of course there are also still pockets of the Basque descendants in England - this is particularly noticeable in Cornwall.

So this site, which says that southern England is as Celtic as mainland Scotland, is wrong then?

Anglo-Celtic.or.uk :: Genes

[Lou]

So this site, which says that southern England is as Celtic as mainland Scotland, is wrong then?

Anglo-Celtic.or.uk :: Genes

Not wrong as such - just not entirely right. I think it's the terminology that's confusing, as I think they are actually saying something very similar. It's the use of the word "Celt" that gets confusing.

From what I understand, Sykes & Oppenheimer are saying that the original population of Britain came from migrations of a Palaeolithic culture from the Iberian Peninsula during the Mesolithic and Neolithic eras. Anglo-Celtic.or.uk :: Home describes these people as "Celts", but this original population are technically pre-Celts, and not actually derived from the central continental European Celts.

Here, technically we do have a "British" ethnicity. However, when it comes to England - there's somewhat of a mixture of DNA. There seems to have been another migration from Scandinavia - resulting in the Scandinavian DNA found towards the East. And there's also Saxon and Anglian DNA, but the recent research has found less of it than was expected. I've just nabbed the following from Wikipedia:

In Origins of the British (2006), Stephen Oppenheimer states (pages 375 and 378):

"By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory..."

As DJB's already pointed out - it's weird that there are separate censuses for NI and Scotland, but a combined one for England & Wales.

I don't believe you can group England and Wales ethnically. By all means lump Wales in with Scotland & Ireland (and some bits of England ) or treat all 4 countries seperately.

[David Bailey]

I've just nabbed the following from Wikipedia:

So, basically we're all Spanish except for some people in Norfolk?

Sounds about right

As DJB's already pointed out - it's weird that there are separate censuses for NI and Scotland, but a combined one for England & Wales.

Yes, from an objective point of view it makes no sense "ethnically".

To be honest I reckon it should just be one UK-wide census anyway, for consistency. I don't believe there are that many different ethinicities - or differences in other ways - between the different parts of the UK to make different censuses worthwhile.

[Lou]

So, basically we're all Spanish except for some people in Norfolk?

Sounds about right

If Sweden invaded Norfolk wouldn’t we hit back ?

Give Norfolk back to the Swedes!

(Apologies for nicking S38's comment from another thread)

Yes, from an objective point of view it makes no sense "ethnically".

Maybe you should see if more people from Norfolk do MJ, Salsa or Tango?

[David Bailey]

Maybe you should see if more people from Norfolk do MJ, Salsa or Tango?

Christ, after all this faffing around, I'm not sure if I have the energy any more.

I've done a "ages" poll on Dance Forums for tango dancers, we'll see how that turns out.

[Lou]

Christ, after all this faffing around, I'm not sure if I have the energy any more.

I was kidding ya!

I've done a "ages" poll on Dance Forums for tango dancers, we'll see how that turns out.

Good luck!

[Martin]

... all that good stuff above...

So my original thought of me being "Probably a bit of Saxon, Viking, Norman, with mostly Roman" might not be too far out, I just missed out a bit of Spanish and Celtic.

A question did come to mind... Why do good looking Spaniads stay fairly dry? .... Coz the rain in Spain, falls mainly on the Plain.

[Stuart M]

To be honest I reckon it should just be one UK-wide census anyway, for consistency. I don't believe there are that many different ethinicities - or differences in other ways - between the different parts of the UK to make different censuses worthwhile.

By that reasoning, the census should also include the Republic of Ireland.

Hey, you opened the can of worms - I just like poking them around with a stick

[David Bailey]

By that reasoning, the census should also include the Republic of Ireland.

Yes - if censuses are about ethnic data, that makes sense.

In fact, why not a European one, if we're going to be ambitious?

[Martin]

In fact, why not a European one, if we're going to be amitious?

Nah, if it were going to get ambitious, I am sure you would spell it correctly...

Although, I am not so hot on spelling myself (had to look the word up to see what it meant )

European would not really help as to MJ.... As MJ in concentrated in UK, NZ and Aus.

[CJ]

Nah, if it were going to get ambitious, I am sure you would spell it correctly...

Although, I am not so hot on spelling myself (had to look the word up to see what it meant )

European would not really help as to MJ.... As MJ in concentrated in UK, NZ and Aus.

If only there was as much concentration in making up polls as there is in MJ, we wouldn't be in this sorry mess...

[Baruch]

If only there was as much concentration in making up polls as there is in MJ, we wouldn't be in this sorry mess...

I thought that in your average MJ class, at least half of the people don't concentrate much at all