Ethnicity of ceroc goers

[Baruch]

Just dwell on fairly recent events in the Balkans. It only takes one charismatic leader (previously Hitler, bin Laden), to whip up latent nationalistic/religous fervour in the mob and release the most basic of folklore memory and inhuman instincts.

True, but such a response is not inevitable. The bloodless, peaceful breakup of Czechoslovakia being a case in point.

Yes, religion too can be subverted and used as a pretext for unimaginable horrors.

Undoubtedly, but the fact that some people might seek to subvert something does not necessarily make it a bad thing. Even if the thing in question is religion or nationalism/patriotism.

I reject religion and abhor tribalism.

That's your right. It is also my right to be a patriot, and I see no connection between supporting my own country and hating/killing people from other countries. The one does not inevitably lead to the other.

I don't seek to elevate my own nation above all others; I just want equality for my nation with all others, rather than the current situation in which we are de facto ruled by England.

[StokeBloke]

My passport says I'm a British subject. However, I don't regard myself as British at all.

With respect - how you regard yourself is pretty irrelevant. You are British. I could be deluded enough to regard myself as a Monkey Man from Mars, but I am also British.

I am Welsh first and last, not British. My first loyalty is to my own country, not to England or Scotland, though I wish those countries well in their own right.

What I am merely pointing out in my post is the redundancy of the "White Scottish" option in this poll. If you were born in Scotland or Wales then - even as you acknowledge - you are a British subject and it is completely accurate to describe you as such. You may wish to identify yourself as something else; but that is completely beside the point. It doesn't make you any less British. There is no need for a superfluous "White Scottish" option to pander to the nationalists from the northern part of the Union, and on this occasion DB was completely right to leave it off. I feel sorry that he gave into the bullying to add it in retrospect and inaccurately skewed the results.

Although in fairness you can just add the Scottish vote into the rest of the British vote - unless you deem yourself Black Scottish of course, perhaps the irrelevant and misguided nationalistic bullying could start again to add that....

[Martin]

I guess I am now Asian.

As Australia is part of Asia.

Some would say, Australia and New Zealand is Oceanic. So I could be Oceanic.

My current passport says I am Australian.

Is there a white Asian option

2 girls who dance here are Korean, but they are as "white" as me... Does that make them Korean white? Could they be Asian white?

We do not offer a filter on the door, so we let the blacks, whites, pinks, browns, and some interesting other colours in.

Overall, the mix of dancers, to the mix of population, is about the same.

[Baruch]

With respect - how you regard yourself is pretty irrelevant. You are British.

Not at all. I am Welsh. Wales is my nation. Britishness is a political invention, nothing more.

The native people of this island are either Welsh, Scottish or English, depending on which nation they come from. "British" is a political, not a national, categorisation.

[David Bailey]

There should soon be a .cym domain for Wales (from Cymru, our own name for our country).

Huh, you learn something every day. Got a link for that? Will there also be ".eng / .scot / .etc." domains?

<pedant mode> Actually, Northern Irish people aren't British. That term refers to people from mainland Britain. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain. I suppose you could argue the toss over whether they should properly be described as Irish or Northern Irish, but they are definitely not British. </pedant mode>

I'd like to see you tell that to the average Orange Order member

If they received proper compensation for North Sea oil, for one thing, I'm sure their economy would thrive. Besides, why is it foolish to want to rule themselves rather than (de facto) being ruled by England?

Not foolish at all - the Westminster government's done damn-all for Scotland over the last 30-years, self-rule is evidently better for the people of Scotland than the alternatives.

My passport says I'm a British subject. However, I don't regard myself as British at all. I am Welsh first and last, not British. My first loyalty is to my own country, not to England or Scotland, though I wish those countries well in their own right.

Is Wales a country then?

[David Bailey]

Not at all. I am Welsh. Wales is my nation. Britishness is a political invention, nothing more.

Well, sure, but so's every nationality, when you get down to it, including Wales.

Or are you making a racial argument then? Because if you are, I have to say, I'm not really impressed with a "my tribe is best" attitude.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Don't let 'em get you down DJ, if you were born in Scotland, England, (Cornwall), Wales or Northern Ireland you are British. On account of the fact that you were born in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. A union made up of the afore mentioned regions in 1922. The Scots are represented on the Union flag (as well they know). In fact they were part of the previous union dating back to the Union of Crowns in 1603.

Surely that's enough time even for a Scot to get their bearings.

Thats just cheeky nonsense - the Union of Crowns was simply that, more than one crown held by a King - the countries themselves weren't joined until the act of Union in 1707. Gibraltar has been part of Britain since 1704 yet the Spanish have yet to "get their bearings" with that Maybe you have a personal bias here

Being British is not the same as being English.

It is often taken that way by other countries, and historically you can see why.

If you are Caucasian and you were born in Scotland then you are White British.

More nonsense - Caucasian is itself a racial term and one for anthropologists to argue over. It's not for you to demand people fit into the way you see things. The whole concept of race is, in the main, utter nonsense. We merely have degrees of physical differences.

Of course you can argue the toss if you like, but them's the facts.

Facts are never black and white (pun intended)

It seems quite fashionable for Scots to turn all Braveheart at the merest wiff of being associated with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. But the Scots have happily enjoyed the benefits of being part of the Union for hundreds of years.

Seriously, p*** right off Lovely "us and them" mentality you have there.

I wonder, if given the choice to completely financially support themselves, if they'd take it.

Why don't you tell us what we should do - I'm sure you're dying too

If you were born in Scotland, England, (Cornwall), Wales or Northern Ireland, then, like it or not, you are a British subject.

There are millions of non-Royalist English people who would object to the word "subject" as much as any Scot.

That's rather sad, and the cause of much conflict around the world and over the years.

I find it really sad that you find it sad Maybe you do understand and are being facetious ?

[Dreadful Scathe]

What I am merely pointing out in my post is the redundancy of the "White Scottish" option in this poll.

Well yes, because it was supposed to be the options from the England and Wales census but DB added categories from others census - he should have stood his ground

But its also true that from a racial point of view "Mixed" is more valid than "white" for most people, especially if you subscribe to the "out of Africa" theory. So I don't think you are taking this quibbling about poll options to its natural conclusion - they are ALL nonsense

If you were born in Scotland or Wales then - even as you acknowledge - you are a British subject and it is completely accurate to describe you as such.

As Baruch said "British" is a political designation - why does it have a place in a question on race or ethnic group, it has nothing to do with it.

There is no need for a superfluous "White Scottish" option to pander to the nationalists from the northern part of the Union, and on this occasion DB was completely right to leave it off.

You're missing the point - he left it off as he was using the England & Wales census question. We have our own census - but i guess that must be "pandering" ; are our own education system and legal system "pandering" too ?

perhaps the irrelevant and misguided nationalistic bullying could start again to add that....

That sort of bullying seems to almost entirely be coming from you !

Some would say, Australia and New Zealand is Oceanic. So I could be Oceanic.

My current passport says I am Australian.

Is there a white Asian option

2 girls who dance here are Korean, but they are as "white" as me... Does that make them Korean white? Could they be Asian white?

We do not offer a filter on the door, so we let the blacks, whites, pinks, browns, and some interesting other colours in.

See, now theres a man who "gets it"

[Baruch]

Huh, you learn something every day. Got a link for that? Will there also be ".eng / .scot / .etc." domains?

OK, more info here and here.

Is Wales a country then?

It was last time I checked.

Or are you making a racial argument then? Because if you are, I have to say, I'm not really impressed with a "my tribe is best" attitude.

As I have already said here and here, that's not my way of thinking at all. I certainly don't think we Welsh are better than anyone else, but I do think we are as good as everyone else and should be given the chance to run our own country rather than have someone else rule us.

As Baruch said "British" is a political designation - why does it have a place in a question on race or ethnic group, it has nothing to do with it.

Indeed. Hear, hear.

You're missing the point - he left it off as he was using the England & Wales census question.

In Wales we had the option in the last census to say we were Welsh. IIRC there was white Welsh, black Welsh and all other colour shades of Welsh. It makes at least as much sense as "White - British" anyway.

EDIT: No we didn't. But we were allowed to write it in, after much protest. There were tick-boxes to allow people to identify their ethnic origin as "Scottish" or "Irish" but not Welsh or English. Many of us obtained stickers (I forget where from) bearing the "Welsh" options I outlined above, to put over the relevant section on the official census form.

[Lou]

Well, sure, but so's every nationality, when you get down to it, including Wales.

Or are you making a racial argument then? Because if you are, I have to say, I'm not really impressed with a "my tribe is best" attitude.

Well, it's a good thing that Baruch hasn't got that attitude then, isn't it? I didn't read his comments in that way, and after all it's not like he's the type of person who'd start this provocative thread....

Maybe we should go back to basics?

Wikipedia has a definition of "Ethnic Group" that reads:

An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of preferential endogamy and/or a presumed or real common ancestry.[1][2] Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness[3] and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits.[1][4]

By this definition, I'd argue that it's actually easier to categorise the Welsh, Scots & Irish as a different ethnic group to the English - as opposed to an all encompassing "British" label.

We can determine different biological traits through some interesting recent research on the genetic history of the British Isles. On this subject, the blurb of Stephen Oppenheimer's book "The Origins of the British", says:

Stephen Oppenheimer shows us, in his meticulous analysis, that there is in truth a deep genetic line dividing the English from the rest of the British people but that, fascinatingly, the roots of that separate identity go back not 1500 years but 6,000.The real story of the British peoples is one of extraordinary continuity and enduring lineage that has survived all onslaughts.

It's fascinating, as it uses DNA analysis to trace a migration of people from the Basque country and Spain into Ireland, Wales & Scotland, and highlights a close affinity between Scandinavians & the English (attributed to the Vikings). In addition, Bryan Sykes (Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford) has also shown that the Anglo Saxons made a significant contribution to the genetic makeup of England (although estimated to be approximately just under 20% - even in Southern England). Of course there are also still pockets of the Basque descendants in England - this is particularly noticeable in Cornwall.

And, of course, the existence of different languages and dialects also helps distinguish the different groupings.

Interestingly, the 2001 UK census did not offer 'Welsh' as an option for ethnicity, unlike respondents in Scotland and Northern Ireland who were able to choose to describe themselves as of Scottish or of Irish ethnicity. As Baruch has just pointed out, 14% of the population took the 'extra step' to write in (or stuck stickers!) that they were of Welsh ethnicity. (source: National Statistics Online)

However, as none of this is reflected in your original ethnic groupings, it's all a moot point*.

*Except that it helps illustrate the total futility of your original exercise.

[Stuart M]

Although in fairness you can just add the Scottish vote into the rest of the British vote - unless you deem yourself Black Scottish of course, perhaps the irrelevant and misguided nationalistic bullying could start again to add that....

Whoa - you're quite happy to have a poll exist, which segregates people into Black, White, Brown etc. flavours of "British". However, it becomes "nationalistic bullying" if anyone suggests replacing the word "British" with "Scottish", "Welsh", or "English"?

One of the more amusing conceits of British nationalists* is how they automatically assume their form of nationalism to be good, while everyone else's is bad/silly/childish and so on. Remember, the UK is a nation that pretty much invented its only land border out of thin air, in order to satisfy religious segregation.

*not the racist party, hence the small 'n'

[David Bailey]

Well yes, because it was supposed to be the options from the England and Wales census but DB added categories from others census - he should have stood his ground

I know, I know, I'm kicking myself for listening to you lot in the first place.

My initial mistake was that I simply Googled for UK census, saw the ".gov.uk" domain, and didn't check the small print saying "England and Wales only".

Honestly, I reckon if it's not a UK census, it shouldn't have a .uk domain name, it's misleading otherwise. Oooh, the West Lothian question goes digital!

[bigdjiver]

Not at all. I am Welsh. Wales is my nation. Britishness is a political invention, nothing more.....

All nationalities are political inventions, some older than others. Before nations there were tribes, before tribes families.

Any label hides individuality.One of the reasons I love Mj is because the label "Dancer" hides so man other individual characteristics and lets me share somthing with so many other people, putting other labels aside.

[David Bailey]

OK, more info here and here.

I see - hmmm, it looks more like a PR stunt to me, to be honest, I doubt it'll happen. Too close to ".com", and too much like an advert for Plaid Cymru.

[David Bailey]

Interestingly, the 2001 UK census did not offer 'Welsh' as an option for ethnicity, unlike respondents in Scotland and Northern Ireland who were able to choose to describe themselves as of Scottish or of Irish ethnicity.

That is weird, isn't it? It's also weird that there are separate censuses for NI and Scotland, but a combined one for England & Wales.

I think there should either be 1 census, or 4. 3 makes no sense...

[Lou]

I think there should either be 1 census, or 4. 3 makes no sense...

That's Government for you, mate.

...and people who draw up censuses without considering the full implications....

[Stuart M]

<pedant mode> Actually, Northern Irish people aren't British. That term refers to people from mainland Britain. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain. I suppose you could argue the toss over whether they should properly be described as Irish or Northern Irish, but they are definitely not British. </pedant mode>

<mega-pedant mode>Actually, Great Britain and Ireland are the two largest islands in the archipelago known as the British Isles. So surely either all citizens of the UK, Republic of Ireland and the Isle of Man are British (but not Channel Islanders), or only the inhabitants of the Island of Great Britain are (so by that definition, Skye, Anglesey and the Isle of Wight become "foreign") </mega-pedant mode>

Ah, isn't trying to stick people in clearly-labelled boxes such fun?

[Dreadful Scathe]

All nationalities are political inventions, some older than others. Before nations there were tribes, before tribes families.

Then surely all nationalities are social inventions - so "Scottish" is a social/ethnic grouping, British is a political label made to cover many social/ethnic groups.

That is weird, isn't it? It's also weird that there are separate censuses for NI and Scotland, but a combined one for England & Wales.

Its not really weird - it has always been done that way. The seperate nations that make up the UK have always been seperate in many ways.

<mega-pedant mode>(so by that definition, Skye, Anglesey and the Isle of Wight become "foreign") </mega-pedant mode>

But Skye has a permanent bridge and is now part of mainland Britain In fact, doesn't Anglesey have one too?

[Gus]

Isn't it strange, but in the face of all the evidence of what price the World pays when we try to separate ourself from our fellow man on religous/cultural/regional differences ... this Forum seems hell bent on reinforcing such differences.

Maybe I'm not really in touch with the real wolrd, but I wlike to think that the great steps that the GB/UK has made post WW2 to integrate people is not something that should be ignored just because of some need to associate to some ancient tribal ancestry. If that is so, why not the case for Wessex to one more ride high amongst the petty states of these fair shores .... and beat the cr@p out of those celtic savages?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Isn't it strange, but in the face of all the evidence of what price the World pays when we try to separate ourself from our fellow man on religous/cultural/regional differences ... this Forum seems hell bent on reinforcing such differences.

eh ? There are differences. Denying them can cause conflict, there is nothing wrong with a sense of identity.

Forcing people to deny certain differences is another cause of conflict. Which is why I say that others attempts to pigeon hole you are generally very bad for a society. If you reinforce diversity and acknowledge it, and everyone is treated equally - there is no reason for conflict.

Maybe I'm not really in touch with the real world, but I like to think that the great steps that the GB/UK has made post WW2 to integrate people is not something that should be ignored just because of some need to associate to some ancient tribal ancestry. If that is so, why not the case for Wessex to one more ride high amongst the petty states of these fair shores .... and beat the cr@p out of those celtic savages?

er...isn't that slightly hypocritical