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Thread: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

  1. #141
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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    JiveLad is a born sceptic. There is a great career for sceptics. It's called scientist. They don't believe anything until it's proven and even then they set confidence limits to their proof.
    Not sure where you got that from Andy. I would provide you with the JiveLad model of healing and health - however, I'm not sure if you're ready for it yet.

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    JiveLad is a born sceptic. There is a great career for sceptics. It's called scientist. They don't believe anything until it's proven and even then they set confidence limits to their proof.
    I would actually say you are the sceptic andy as you are the one who is mocking the pharma treatments
    I would be interested have you ever had any homeopathic treatment

    I am a born sceptic and admit it however when at storm i had a migrane and barbs had hurt her hip

    we thought we were going to have to go home a good friend of ours recomended kinesiology

    we went to the treatment room and the therapist firstly told us what was wrong without us telling him in any way
    secondly he cured my migrane by using pressure on acupuncture spots on my neck
    he also sorted out barbs' hip so we were able to stay and enjoy the weekend
    now be it placebo or real treatment i really dont care all i know is it worked to the extent that i have now found a kinesiologist in our area who is going to treat some other problems i have

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    ... poor quality products (what other industry would withdraw hundreds of products each year because they were harming or even killing customers)...
    The withdrawal of products is a sign of an industry that tries to improve quality. Too many other industries ignore health risks for profit. The tobacco industry is one such, but it is a widespread occurance.

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I would actually say you are the sceptic andy as you are the one who is mocking the pharma treatments
    I would be interested have you ever had any homeopathic treatment
    I am not mocking treatments. I am mocking certain types of therapist for insisting on using treatments that are unproven. And, to some extent, I'm saying that people who use those, unproven, treatments have been taken in or tricked.
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    secondly he cured my migrane by using pressure on acupuncture spots on my neck
    he also sorted out barbs' hip so we were able to stay and enjoy the weekend
    now be it placebo or real treatment i really dont care all i know is it worked to the extent that i have now found a kinesiologist in our area who is going to treat some other problems i have
    Acupuncture has been shown to work. The trails are not extensive but they are positive and have reasonable confidence limits.

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I am not mocking treatments. I am mocking certain types of therapist for insisting on using treatments that are unproven. And, to some extent, I'm saying that people who use those, unproven, treatments have been taken in or tricked.
    so you are mocking people who use certain types of therapy that may work for them be it placebo or not without putting chemicals (which almost all have side affects )into their bodies

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    so you are mocking people who use certain types of therapy
    You could put it like that if you wanted to take a negative approach. However, it is not my intention to mock people for being tricked. It is my intention to reveal the trickery and enlighten those who are taken in. Being told that an ineffetual treatment will cure you is tricking you. Basically you are being told a lie. That the therapist has been taken in by the lie makes it no less of a lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    certain types of therapy that may work for them be it placebo or not without putting chemicals (which almost all have side affects )into their bodies
    To put it simply, a treatment that is no better than placebo is a treatment that is ineffectual. Saying that a treatment that is no more effective than placebo is a good treatment because it isn't introducing chemicals into the body is a weak defence. It sounds like "this will do you no more good than water, but it will do you no more harm than water" - what is unsaid is "I will tell you some pseudo scientific mumbo-jumbo to justify charging you for this treatment that will do no harm and is not better than water - I'm hoping that the mumbo-jumbo will add to the placebo effect and the fact you've paid will make you feel that you've had value"

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    There is a growing body of well-researched writing which explores the inner workings of Big Pharma: {snip citations}
    The problem - at least as far as I am concerned - is that annoyance with what are undoubtedly undesirable practices which pharmaceutical companies have followed is used as a justification for credulous acceptance of 'alternative' medicines and treatment on the lines of 'well that doesn't work so this must'.

    Evidence-based medicine catches it in the neck along with pharmaceutical companies as if somehow sharp commercial practice undermined the principle of carrying out experiments in order to determine how best to treat a problem.

    Your posts sometimes seem to get very close to that very assertion.

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    The problem - at least as far as I am concerned - is that annoyance with what are undoubtedly undesirable practices which pharmaceutical companies have followed is used as a justification for credulous acceptance of 'alternative' medicines and treatment on the lines of 'well that doesn't work so this must'.

    Evidence-based medicine catches it in the neck along with pharmaceutical companies as if somehow sharp commercial practice undermined the principle of carrying out experiments in order to determine how best to treat a problem.

    Your posts sometimes seem to get very close to that very assertion.
    Barry - not sure which of your assertions you are referring to.......

    1. Acceptance of alternative medicine is justified by annoyance with undesirable practices

    OR

    2. The principle of experimentation to determine a solution is undermined by sharp commercial practice.

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Acupuncture has been shown to work. The trails are not extensive but they are positive and have reasonable confidence limits.
    Yes, your GP can refer you for Acupuncture as a hospital out patient and it's free.

    There are Homepathic GPs who are also GPs, and a few Homeopathic hospitals, but Homepathic treatment is too expensive for a lot of people.

    US Pharmacuticals are tapping into the homeopathy market and going back to nature to find sources they've been imitating in the lab.

    I think the US will lead the way in testing Homepathy. I just hope the Homeopathic Society have their patents legally out of reach of the Pharmas.

    The British tend to lag behind the US.

    I wonder though, how many large Pharmas are British owned?

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Yes, your GP can refer you for Acupuncture as a hospital out patient and it's free.
    The NHS is free. That's the whole idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    There are Homepathic GPs who are also GPs, and a few Homeopathic hospitals, but Homepathic treatment is too expensive for a lot of people.
    How can something that contains nothing be so expensive?
    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    US Pharmacuticals are tapping into the homeopathy market and going back to nature to find sources they've been imitating in the lab.
    How do you know this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I think the US will lead the way in testing Homepathy. I just hope the Homeopathic Society have their patents legally out of reach of the Pharmas.
    In spite of this there is no evidence that hopeopathy (sic) is any more effective than placebo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The British tend to lag behind the US.
    As far as I know, there is no evididence for this. What is your source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I wonder though, how many large Pharmas are British owned?
    Very few drug companies are "owned". They are mostly PLCs. This means they are owned by their shareholders and those shares are traded in public. And, I wonder, what makes Astro ask this question?

    In my opinion Astro as been completely taken in by the whole homeopathy story. There are quite a few charismatic people who have also been taken in and are very good at selling homeopathy. For some reason I'm thinking "snake oil"

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    How can something that contains nothing be so expensive?
    How do you know this?
    it's not like the 5 minutes you get with the GP. They ask tons of questions about your health history. Things like what your grandparents died of.
    In spite of this there is no evidence that hopeopathy (sic) is any more effective than placebo.

    As far as I know, there is no evididence for this. What is your source?
    A lot of substances are banned in the USA because scientists in the US have tested them and found them to be dangerous.
    Sacherin and Aspartame for instance.
    Robinsons make two types Barley Water and their other drinks. They use Aspartame in the bottle destined for UK shops, but it's not added to the ones destined for US shops.

    Very few drug companies are "owned". They are mostly PLCs. This means they are owned by their shareholders and those shares are traded in public. And, I wonder, what makes Astro ask this question?
    I was prescribed vitamin D and calcium by my GP - think it's called Adcal.

    The tablets tasted way too sweet and made my teeth hurt.
    I asked the GP if i could have the one's given to diabetics thinking they wouldn't taste sweet.

    He looked on the computer and said there was only one, but to ask the chemist to change the prescription.

    The chemist said there was no sugar in them, it's Saccharin and they are the only ones available. He said if they hurt your teeth break them up first so you don't have to crunch them.

    Any way knowing the dangers of Saccharin, I went to Holland & Barratt and got some of their Calcium and vitamin D vitamin. They don't taste sweet and don't have Saccharin in them.

    So I reckon a UK Pharma has the monopoly on that particular prescription.
    Last edited by Astro; 30th-August-2008 at 03:43 PM. Reason: spellings of Aspartame and Saccharin

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Interesting article oin Big Pharma in the Guardian today, includes the following quote:

    "
    The industry has also been hit by large-scale public health scares. In his recent book Flirting with Disaster: Why Accidents Are Rarely Accidental, Gerstein analyses US drugmaker Merck's Vioxx disaster - the painkiller had to be withdrawn in 2004 after causing thousands of heart attacks and strokes.
    "Could this happen in the UK?" he asked. "The odds seem lower than in the US, but the pressures to enhance drug marketing and co-opt the regulators are ever present. There is a lot of money at stake."
    In Britain, GSK had to issue new safety warnings after its diabetes drug Avandia was linked with an increased risk of heart attacks last year.

    See Pharmaceutical industry suffering | Business | The Guardian

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Which is uncannily similar to much of the pharmaceutical industry......

    I remember going to an internal presentation by the Marketing Director at one of the big pharma companies, and he used the words: "...when we invented ADHD.....".

    After that, I decided to take a more judicious approach to working with big pharma.
    Interesting to read about ADHD and the new restrictions on prescriptions being introduced:

    Doctors told to curb use of Ritalin in hyperactive children - Times Online

    "Ritalin and Concerta can have side-effects that include nervousness, insomnia, appetite loss and weight loss. Strattera can cause nausea, dizziness, fatigue and mood swings. There has also been little research into the implications of taking them as long-term treatments."

    (My italics).

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    How can something that contains nothing be so expensive?


    In spite of this there is no evidence that hopeopathy (sic) is any more effective than placebo.



    In my opinion Astro as been completely taken in by the whole homeopathy story. There are quite a few charismatic people who have also been taken in and are very good at selling homeopathy. For some reason I'm thinking "snake oil"
    Odd thing is i had a kinesiologist (wiki) (someone i have known for a few yrs although she doesnt know anything about my life)
    She (through muscle testing) found out that i had an accident which caused me facial trauma when i was 28 i had forgotten about this when we were talking and going through anything that related to my health in the past. She could not possibly have known about this accident

    My question to you andy would be how did she know,one that i had a trauma and two more importantly the age i was when i had the accident (i worked it out after she had left and she was right) purley through pulling against my arm if she was talking hokum and snake oil

    This was just one part of a two hour consultation for me and she found an aweful lot more than i could remember

    She told me a lot of what i am suffering from (acid reflux etc) purely by putting her hand over bottles in her boxes while pulling my arm against me trying my hardest to keep it in place

    I am a complete sceptic on this sort of thing but i was certainly impressed with this and it made me believe there is a whole lot more to holistic medicine than any of us know

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Me View Post
    according to research mentioned in the Placebo programme, placebos in brand-name packaging (with lots of advertising behind them) do cure people better than identical placebos in generic packaging.
    Not only that but expensive placebos work better than cheap placebos (a finding which won the researchers a 2008 Ig Nobel prize).
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: "pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    My question to you andy would be how did she know,one that i had a trauma and two more importantly the age i was when i had the accident (i worked it out after she had left and she was right) purley through pulling against my arm if she was talking hokum and snake oil
    Well clearly she must have used MAGIC. Since there is no way that science could tell whether you had had that accident at 26 or 30 rather than 28.

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