"pharma/alternative medicine/superstitious nonsense"

[Barry Shnikov]

Indeed, but try relaxing when you look like a drooling fool, can't blink, can't drink, don't want anyone to see you and you've just found out that there are thousands of people who NEVER recover fully from Bell's Palsy.
That's the trouble with the internet, it's much easier to find horror stories that happy endings. After all, those of us that do recover completely, rarely bother to tell forums, etc about it.

Oh dear, you focused on the wrong bit. (Even though I underlined it) The important point is that most Bell's palsy patients recover. Therefore, no spooky oriental treatments need to be invoked - you were overwhelmingly likely to have got better whatever you did.

So no, it's not a fair assumption that the reiki had any effect. This is exactly where woo-woo therapies build their client base from - anecdotes of cases in which the proper circumstances are not examined. Ailments which usually go away; remissions that coincide with the treatment (and later relapses which slip below the radar or are deliberately concealed); mis-diagnosing trivial problems as serious ones, the 'curing' of which seems more amazing, and so on.

[Barry Shnikov]

Holistic Homepathic medicine is the forerunner of Allapathic medicine, not the other way around.

Allapathic medicine started around the Dark Ages I think, and is still with us. That's probably why all the medicine women/witches were burnt at the stake. Males saw the money in Allapathic and wanted rid of them

In fact Allopathic Doctors got the idea of vacinations from Homeopathy.

Wow. So much disinformation from only one source. I don't wish to sound harsh, but you fatally contradict yourself within one post.

1. You say "homeopathic medicine is the forerunner of Allapathic medicine".

I don't think anyone contradicts the idea that homeopathy was invented (or discovered, if you like) by Samuel Hahnemann. He was born in 1755, and Wikipedia gives 1784 as the approximate date of his ceasing to practise contemporary medicine, and 1792 as the approximate date of his beginning to attempt 'homeopathic cures'. Yet you say

2. that allopathic medicine (a nomenclature the definition of which I am unsure) 'started around the dark ages'.

The 'dark ages' was an era which by any account was over by the time of Shakespeares' flourishing, 1599; and most people would probably accept that it ended substantially earlier, about 1066, when the 'middle ages' began. So there's a fundamental problem with your thesis.

You also say

3. that 'allopathic doctors' (another problem phrase) got the idea for vaccination from homeopaths.

In fact they got it from Edward Jenner, who noticed that milk maids were immune to smallpox. He theorised that cowpox, a more benign disease than smallpox, prevented the smallpox from infecting the milkmaids. He innoculated a boy with cowpox in 1796, and then showed that he could not be infected with smallpox. (Lucky for the boy that his theory was correct, but that's another story.) Conversely, Hahnemann did not publish his homeopathic theories until 1810.

[Gav]

Well, there's the rub, isn't it? What would you say that the difference is - given that alternative medicine is based entirely on wishful thinking?

Given that, I wouldn't say anything because that's an assumption that we do not share, therefore any argument based on it would be pointless. Similarly, if I were to ask you to describe the difference 'based on an assumption that Alternative treatments are valid and more effective than Scientific ones'.

(Am currently reading Trick or treatment, co-authored by the world's first professor of alternative medicine, an ex-practitioner of homeopathy, named Edzard Ernst. He and his fellow author (Simon Singh) conclude that homeopathy is bunkum, and I just read the part where I found out for the first time that a good part of the West's excitement and obsession with acupuncture was created by untruthful and dishonest films and events in which propoganda about superiority of 'TCM' was advanced by, in one case, giving huge doses of local and non-drowsy anaesthesia to a patient having open-heart surgery and then pretending that it was the acupuncture needle in the earlobe that was dealing with all the pain.)

I've described my experiences, they've described theirs and some others that they've heard about. Interesting, but not really relevant.

Oh dear, you focused on the wrong bit. (Even though I underlined it) The important point is that most Bell's palsy patients recover. Therefore, no spooky oriental treatments need to be invoked - you were overwhelmingly likely to have got better whatever you did.

So no, it's not a fair assumption that the reiki had any effect. This is exactly where woo-woo therapies build their client base from - anecdotes of cases in which the proper circumstances are not examined. Ailments which usually go away; remissions that coincide with the treatment (and later relapses which slip below the radar or are deliberately concealed); mis-diagnosing trivial problems as serious ones, the 'curing' of which seems more amazing, and so on.

No, I think you're focusing on the wrong point. What I was trying to say was that I believe that a state of deep relaxation initiated the healing process earlier than if I had continued in my tense, frightened state.
That relaxation was achieved using Reiki. It may be possible for some people to reach a similar state another way, but Reiki did it for me.

Barry, you really don't have to prove that the world is round every time you hear the word 'flat' in any context.

[bigdjiver]

... In fact they got it from Edward Jenner, who noticed that milk maids were immune to smallpox...

As I recall the tale a milkmaid said to Jenner "I cannot get the smallpox, sir, for I have had the cowpox."

[Andy McGregor]

{maybe the pharma comments could be made into a separate thread?}

I've created a new thread here called "Are Complimentary and Alternative Therapies Any Good?"

[Astro]

Indeed, but try relaxing when you look like a drooling fool, can't blink, can't drink, don't want anyone to see you and you've just found out that there are thousands of people who NEVER recover fully from Bell's Palsy.
That's the trouble with the internet, it's much easier to find horror stories that happy endings. After all, those of us that do recover completely, rarely bother to tell forums, etc about it.

My GP refered me to the Ear Nose and Throat Hospital which I chose and is the best.

If it doesn't recover they will give you surgery. I wasn't too worried as I could do with a face lift.

I know someone who knows someone who had surgery there for Bells Palsy and it was a sucess.

It can also affect your hearing. I have to go back in September again.

[Barry Shnikov]

Given that, I wouldn't say anything because that's an assumption that we do not share, therefore any argument based on it would be pointless. Similarly, if I were to ask you to describe the difference 'based on an assumption that Alternative treatments are valid and more effective than Scientific ones'.

OK, forget assumptions. What is alternative medicine (alternative to evidence-based medicine, otherwise it isn't 'alternative', but just 'medicine') based on?

So far as I can see, all there is, is a great series of small or large scale assertions put forward by people which other people then decide they are going to believe. Some are ancient (acupuncture) some are relatively modern (reiki, homeopathy, chiropractic, collagenic silver), but they all share one feature - when they are subjected to randomised double blind tests they fizzle out.

You don't know that the resolution of your medical problem was accelerated by the relaxation you experienced; you simply choose to believe it. There is a co-incidence in time and space between the mumblings of the therapist and the remission, but that means nothing. You'd be indignant if people were locked up because of nothing more than a co-incidence in time and space between them and the commission of a crime. Furthermore, while you were (very understandably) in a state of high anxiety, any number of therapies based on evidence would recommend relaxation as a contributory factor.

[Gav]

OK, forget assumptions. What is alternative medicine (alternative to evidence-based medicine, otherwise it isn't 'alternative', but just 'medicine') based on?

You see, you're just trying to cloud the issue with your own opinions by saying things like 'alternative to evidence-based medicine'. That's clearly not an impartial, or 'evidence-based' description and is therefore just unhelpful.

So far as I can see, all there is, is a great series of small or large scale assertions put forward by people which other people then decide they are going to believe. Some are ancient (acupuncture) some are relatively modern (reiki, homeopathy, chiropractic, collagenic silver), but they all share one feature - when they are subjected to randomised double blind tests they fizzle out.

But don't all treatments start with an idea? I'm fairly sure that no 'science/evidence-based' treatment came into existence already proven and accepted? Personally, I think that the difficulties faced by any 'alternative treatment' are because they claim to do too much.

You don't know that the resolution of your medical problem was accelerated by the relaxation you experienced; you simply choose to believe it.

Well of course not and until someone makes a time-machine available so I can go back, not have the treatment and see what happens, I never will.
However, I think you'll find that I actually said:

I believe that a state of deep relaxation initiated the healing process earlier than if I had continued in my tense, frightened state

So your point is?

[Astro]

Mainstream medicines from the GP/NHS doesn't always work.

In some cases it can alieviate health problems, but not cure them.

In other cases bad side effects cause even more health problems than what you started with.



The reason people turn to alternative medicine is because they have exhausted all avenues within the NHS.

NB. It is possible to have acapuncture in some NHS Health Authorities hospitals and clinics.

In fact I had acupunture on the NHS free in the 1980's in London. So it's not a new thing.

My father had acupuncture at either Scarborough or York hospital for his heart condition a few years ago.

Some NHS GP's are also homeopaths - I have a list somewhere, but it's at least 10 years old.

[Barry Shnikov]

When talking about 'alternative' medicine, it becomes necessary to define the term. Alternative to what?

The type of medicine that is practised by our national health doctors and hospitals in the UK is 'evidence based medicine'. Some of the evidence is strong, some not so strong, but generally for new therapies and treatments to become accepted, those who support them (whether a doctor with a pet theory, like the Australian guy with helicobacter pylorum, or a drug company with a new medicine) will have to prove that they are effective. The proof is by means of tests - a whole series of them, but eventually on patients to see how well the idea works in practice. Other things being equal, proven treatments will be adopted.

Therefore 'alternative' medicine is medicine that doesn't pass evidential muster. This must be so, because as soon as a treatment is adopted, it's mainstream and not 'alternative' any more. And as soon as the treatment is proven, it will be adopted because - gasp! - doctors really want to make us better. Yes they do.

So there's nothing weaselly in my definition in my previous post. Reflexology isn't alternative by virtue of its adoption by spacey, hippy chicks and people who live an alternative lifestyle, but by virtue of the fact that its central tenets are unproven.

So I repeat my assertion that such alternative therapies are based on magical thinking. Sharks don't get cancer so...I guess if we eat shark bits...we won't get cancer either! Dogs and cats eat wheatgrass to make themselves sick when they feel poorly so...if we drink wheatgrass juice...I guess it will aid our digestion! There are 12 great rivers in China and so...there must be 12 great rivers in the human body for the chi to run along...we'll call them meridians! I feel cut off from nature living here in the city and there sure are lots of illnesses city dwellers are prone to...so if we all go back to living in mud huts...everything will magically get better!Lots of foods can make us unwell and some people are even allergic to some food so...maybe we should try not eating food at all, it worked for that Australian woman!!

The other major reason for belief in alternative medicine is the desire to hand the frightening process of making difficult decisions over to someone else - so certain people, when meeting a man or a woman, very charismatic and absolutely sure of himself - who says 'Stick these metal discs on your water pipe and it will magically purify your water not only of nasty stuff that shouldn't be there but even of the nasty stuff the gummint puts in whether you want it or not!' they believe him (or her).

[Barry Shnikov]

Barry, whether you believe in the idea of aura or not, surely you've come across people who just leave you feeling exhausted, and others who leave you feeling energised and good? That's all it is. The exact mechanism (psychological, physiological, spiritual, mental, emotional) doesn't matter.

I've found a solution for you.

This chap has been able to 'store' the 'subtle energies' of the 'ancient modality of acupuncture' and, so far as I can see, transfer them into food or tablets or something so that you can get a 'jolt' of 'chi' just by popping his pills.

Amazing. The things people do to help their fellow man.

(By the way, it may be useful to point out that, unlike the alternative medicine practitioner recently arrested in Belgrade, Dr Kronn is not a war criminal.)

[batnurse]

Barry - you really need to get a job.
You've far to much time on your hands these days!

[Andy McGregor]

Barry - you really need to get a job.
You've far to much time on your hands these days!

I've been a bit too busy to post recently. I'm pleased to see that Barry is posting in exactly the same way that I would.

What worries me is that there may be nobody to offer the voice of reason if we're both on holiday in the same week*. The other thing, which worries me less, is that I often find that I've got nothing to add because Barry has already said it all



*Perhaps we should sort out a rota so that at least one thinking person can be on the forum at any time. What shall we call ourselves? The Reasonables? The Voices**? Is there a one-piece, figure-hugging uniform in a primary colour?


**I hear them all the time ...

.. obviously

[JiveLad]

And.....................

[Astro]

And.....................

Agree

The rational mind, taken to extremes, is a dangerous thing.

[Andy McGregor]

Agree

The rational mind, taken to extremes, is a dangerous thing.

Whereas a mind that can expect an illness to be cured by an unproven remedy is ...

..?

[ducasi]

*Perhaps we should sort out a rota so that at least one thinking person can be on the forum at any time. What shall we call ourselves? The Reasonables? The Voices**? Is there a one-piece, figure-hugging uniform in a primary colour?

You're thinking of "The Brights". I think they should be called "The Smugs" though.

[Astro]

Whereas a mind that can expect an illness to be cured by an unproven remedy is ...

..?

There's an old adage -

"The mind is a good servant, but a poor master"

Meaning, there is more to a person than their mind, other resources can also be called upon for a person to be truly *intelligent.

*intelligent - a holistic understanding. Not academically measured intelligence.

[JiveLad]

Whereas a mind that can expect an illness to be cured by an unproven remedy is ...

..?

....probably working in big pharma....

[Chef]

....probably working in big pharma....

I am sorry you will have to explain that one to me.

Why would someone that expected an illness to be cured by an unproven remedy be working in big pharma?

I can understand that someone that might TEST to see if an illness could be cured by a possible NEW remedy might work in big pharma.

You know after the possible remedy had been through initial safety assement to ensure it is not toxic to liver cells, not prone to inducing carcinogenic changes in cells, been through many other independantly reviewed stages before it sees trials in healthy patients. Then, if it makes it that far it goes into double blind (where neither the patient nor the doctor knows which is has the new active ingredient in it) clinical study, with patients that are suffering from the actual illness - often in a direct comparision with the best thereapy for that illness currently available.

One can THEORISE and then can set up and EXPERIMENT to TEST your theory but one thing you cannot do is go into a well designed experiment with an EXPECTATION of the result. If you know or expect what the result of the experiment will be then it is not an experiment. One can HOPE for a favorable result from an experiment but you cannot EXPECT it.