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Thread: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

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    What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Just wondering about this.

    I just wondered what you get if you start up a Ceroc franchise? (If we're allowed to talk about this stuff?).

    I mean, national brand, yes, but we only know Ceroc because we're dancers, Ceroc means nothing to the man on the street (I would guess, never seen any advertising whether local or national outside web sites and the odd flyer). So it's brand worth is presumably virtually nil to those new dancers you wanna get...

    I know you get sent on courses and get manuals, nice pretty banners etc. but they are all paid for upfront so to speak. So no relevance to the percentage you pay on every night.

    I also know things like playlists and what I call soft support (I.E. cheap and easy) is provided. You also get the right to lose dancers from your nights by advertising Hammersmith and weekenders etc.

    But what else ? What makes it worth giving up whatever the percentage hard earned mula it is these days and not calling yourself Me, Myself and Jive ?

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    You get exactly the same benefits as you'd get from any other franchise. You get access to a winning formula.

    Think of McDonalds. What would be the difference between someone who likes burgers opening their own burger restaurant and take-away and someone taking on a McDonalds franchise? What would be their relative chances of success?

    Ceroc have trod the path many times before. All you need to do is step in their footprints to find the route to success. Go it alone and you need to know so much. As someone who has gone it alone I can tell you that it is a steep learning curve and very expensive. Also, there are many failures of people who go it alone. I can think of a few in our area who opened and sank without trace withing a couple of months. I know what they did wrong and so do Ceroc - do you think we're going to tell them?*

    *Another thing about running your own night is that your customers are very quick to tell you where you're going wrong

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You get exactly the same benefits as you'd get from any other franchise. You get access to a winning formula.

    Think of McDonalds. What would be the difference between someone who likes burgers opening their own burger restaurant and take-away and someone taking on a McDonalds franchise? What would be their relative chances of success?

    Ceroc have trod the path many times before. All you need to do is step in their footprints to find the route to success. Go it alone and you need to know so much. As someone who has gone it alone I can tell you that it is a steep learning curve and very expensive. Also, there are many failures of people who go it alone. ...
    Ceroc tell you some of the elements of success, and do not tell you to do things that have usually failed. The business is as much about people as it is about practises. There are a lot of Ceroc venues that have closed down without ever making money. There have been others that suceeded for a while but then failed, probably due to changes in crew. There is a significant difference in performance between teachers, DJ's and Taxi dancers even though they are all supposed to be applying the same formula. The character of the regulars matters too. Some of them have significant effects on return rates, positive and negative.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You get exactly the same benefits as you'd get from any other franchise. You get access to a winning formula.

    *Another thing about running your own night is that your customers are very quick to tell you where you're going wrong

    I am sure I will get some scarcastic comments and more "neg reps" from the virus twins for this post ...But I agree with Andy.

    With Ceroc you get a tried, trusted and respected formula... and they get some more money to promote more clubs. World domination

    I went the L***C route. The first year was hard work but we were lucky with having great support from our dance friends...Whose attendance paid for the venue, on our worst night we made £5 profit.

    They are now our crew... So we can now repay their kindness for supporting us in the early days... Plus I had a great mentor Peter Phillips who lent us equipment FOC and gave us some great advice...

    You need friends you can trust..including other organisers like Mike Mariner & James Shepherd, thanks guys.

    The benefits of going it alone are ...You keep all the profits but.... also payout for all the losses....Success or failure is all yours.

    Good Luck with the Ceroc route if you go that way but there are other routes you could try...

    * Warning Warning Another cheesy comment

    You must listen to your customers for without them you dance alone. Dah! Dah!

    So if they want the Bongo Song play it.

    Go for it...

    We are now in our 6th year and still going strong..

    Oh! don't forget the taxman he wants his cut for Gordon..
    Last edited by SPROGGS; 24th-July-2008 at 11:13 PM.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    There's a whole description of what Ceroc Franchisors (!) get, here:
    CEROC - About

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    begs the question though - are there any areas NOT covered by a current franchise. After all its not like a Subway sandwich shop where a busy town or city can support several - is it? I like the bit in there about "Ceroc concept has spawned many lookalikes" when Leroc started at the same time and could equally have been an influence on others

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    J
    But what else ? What makes it worth giving up whatever the percentage hard earned mula it is these days and not calling yourself Me, Myself and Jive ?
    Not being involved in the business side at all, I'd guess the brand is the thing of greatest value. It gives you access to a pool of dancers who don't know about uk-jive, and also makes you part of a group that more friends of friends will have heard of - so you must be more likely to get the attention of non-dancers.

    I'm less sure how this would apply in an area where there is no significant existing ceroc presence.

    I think it also gives you more credibility if people have experience of the '10 regulars in a church hall' type of dance class - it's easier to appear professional even if you're not.

    Sean

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    The 'winning formula' thing is all a bit dicey.

    In the more than a few years I have been jiving, Ceroc have actually contracted (at least in England, not sure when the Scottish expansion happened), they really haven't been 'winning' anything for quite a while now (cept weekenders I guess). At best, maintaining the status quo, which if your earning millions at the center is all you want I guess

    Whilst the franchise route presumably is a quick method of getting the information to give you a chance to succeed, much of it can be picked up by observation, networking, research and trial and error.

    Also, whilst it's true a lot of independants fail, a lot of Ceroc franchises fail as well. Indeed, any relative success for Ceroc franchises over independants can more than be accounted for by the fact that the Ceroc method screens out financially a lot of those less likely to succeed.

    Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to post figures, but I am aware of the current costs of setting up a Ceroc franchise. Frankly I found them just simply unbelieveable. That's why i asked the original question.

    For what they are worth, so far we have;
    'winning formula'
    'national brand'.
    'soft support'

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to post figures, but I am aware of the current costs of setting up a Ceroc franchise.
    Why's it inappropriate? Ceroc give guidelines on that page I linked to (does anyone look at my links?) - roughly, £2.5K for the franchising (including teaching), they then estimate £2K for sound and lighting equipment*, and £2.5K for general startup costs.

    They may well be unbelievable, but they're not secret or anything.

    * Unless your name is Marc Forster in which case increase the lighting budget by 1,000%

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why's it inappropriate? Ceroc give guidelines on that page I linked to (does anyone look at my links?) - roughly, £2.5K for the franchising (including teaching), they then estimate £2K for sound and lighting equipment*, and £2.5K for general startup costs.

    They may well be unbelievable, but they're not secret or anything.

    * Unless your name is Marc Forster in which case increase the lighting budget by 1,000%
    I read it. If you read further, there are additional expenses for teacher training and a whole plethor of courses etc. On top of that, there is the 'percentage' and deductions for 'marketing activities'.

    I do admit I should have said 'setting up and running' rather than just 'setting up'. Not just talking about the insignificant startup costs.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 25th-July-2008 at 11:02 AM.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    The figures you quote are just the initial startup costs. Insignificant in the whole picture of what it costs.
    Hence the observation that anyone without a good and effective business plan is not going to be a ceroc franchisee. They won't get to that point without seeing the real cost of what they're getting into.

    I see this as similar to using an agent to rent a house (which I have done). Cost it as if you have to pay the agent (their 10% cut on the rent takes most of the difference between rent and mortgage) in order to decide if it's a viable business. Then go ahead without the agent, and hope you don't run into any problems that they would actually have solved for you.

    If you can only make a profit without paying the franchise fee, chances are it won't work out.

    Sean

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I read it. If you read further, there are additional expenses for teacher training and a whole plethor of courses etc. On top of that, there is the 'percentage' and deductions for 'marketing activities'.
    So the same as any other franchise business then

    I do admit I should have said 'setting up and running' rather than just 'setting up'. Not just talking about the insignificant startup costs.
    Yes you should have said that. You've still not explained why it would be innappropriate to talk about it ? I'm sure Ceroc would be happy to help future franchise owners create their business plan, and as long as you don't discuss actual franchisee businesses financial info - who cares?

    I also don't see what the big deal is - you seem shocked and awed that a business costs money to run ANY business needs to look at how much money its going to need to make to do well once all overheads are considered. Franchise fees are part of a franchise business. If you were to start your own non-franchise business you still have licence fees, insurance, employee pay and everything else. As a franchisee, any fees you pay to the franchise owner are just another cost. You are paying for a template, if you don't want it - don't buy into a franchise

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You've still not explained why it would be innappropriate to talk about it ? I'm sure Ceroc would be happy to help future franchise owners create their business plan, and as long as you don't discuss actual franchisee businesses financial info - who cares?
    It's inappropriate to talk about figures in my case. It just is, so I'm not. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I also don't see what the big deal is - you seem shocked and awed that a business costs money to run
    DS, don't be such a simpleton. It's obvious from my posts that I am 'shocked and awed' (nice words in my mouth by the way) by the amount, not that it 'actually costs'. Jeez! Learn to read why dotcha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You are paying for a template, if you don't want it - don't buy into a franchise
    What on earth are you talking about? Did I say I was thinking of buying into a franchise? I am really getting worried 'bout you DS.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    It's inappropriate to talk about figures in my case. It just is, so I'm not. Period.
    I wasn't suggesting anyone talk about real proven figures. General speculative figures on how much it costs to run a ceroc night would be fine. As I said, I am quite sure Ceroc would discuss running costs with prospective franchisees if they expect them to subscribe.

    DS, don't be such a simpleton. It's obvious from my posts that I am 'shocked and awed' (nice words in my mouth by the way) by the amount, not that it 'actually costs'. Jeez! Learn to read why dotcha!
    Whats the difference? You are making a big deal out of the costs. Extra costs from a franchise are offset by bringing in more, or easier, money - or why do it. If EasyJet were a franchise owner and we were discussing that, would you be saying "my god, you need to buy a plane, have you seen how much they cost!!!". I'm not impressed, its simply a business cost. More money in, less money out, is pretty simple regardless of the size of the figures involved

    What on earth are you talking about? Did I say I was thinking of buying into a franchise?
    No, and I didn't suggest you were. We were talking about franchisees in general not individuals.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Whats the difference? You are making a big deal out of the costs. Extra costs from a franchise are offset by bringing in more, or easier, money - or why do it. If EasyJet were a franchise owner and we were discussing that, would you be saying "my god, you need to buy a plane, have you seen how much they cost!!!".
    Not really the same. Hypothetically, a closer example might be:

    You need to buy a plane from EasyJet! And have you seen how much more they charge for it than for a plane direct from Boeing?

    And then you have to get EasyJet fuel at a 50% markup, and all your pilots have to go on EasyJet training/certification that costs £100K for a weekend course.

    Oh, and then you have to give £10 out of every fare to EasyJet.
    In particular, note that all those costs are not ones you could reasonably guess just from an understanding of the airline business - they would be totally specific to the franchise. (In all likelyhood, they would be different for each franchise as well).

    That said, I agree with you that "if you don't want to pay, you don't have to play".

    Now personally, I think it would be interesting to hear at least ballpark figures for a typical franchise. But I'm just a nosy git - it's none of my business, really.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Not really the same. Hypothetically, a closer example might be: {examples}
    Indeed - I realise that but its a continuation of the same point, all adding up to "total franchise cost". I do appreciate TA Guys basic point that it is a lot of money (and as you say individual elements can only be sourced from Ceroc at a premium) whether you accept that hit and start the franchise or not - but the primary thing is - Its not surprising or horrifying or purple, it is what it is.

    Now personally, I think it would be interesting to hear at least ballpark figures for a typical franchise. But I'm just a nosy git - it's none of my business, really.
    Me too, in a general way of course - as if we were talking about a brand new franchise. I've no real interest in someones nightly takings But it isn't "none of your business" if you are even slightly, in your dreams, entertaining the theory that becoming a franchisee is a good idea.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You get exactly the same benefits as you'd get from any other franchise. .........
    .....Ceroc have trod the path many times before.....:
    This sums up any franchise
    Of course, if you already have years of experience of the industry you are about to enter, then may be, you can go it alone

    There is one big advantage / disadvantage of going it alone
    There is no one to tell you what to do

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    ... but the primary thing is - Its not surprising or horrifying or purple, it is what it is.
    Wellllllll....., follow that thru to it's logical conclusion and words like that would never be used. Cos everything 'is what it is'.
    Luckily, we have this wonderful thing called language that allows us, amongst other things, to extend emotional content into concepts. Something that is 'is what it is' to you may well be a 'surprizing, horrfying and purple' thing to me. Excuse me for using the English language to it's full potential, potentially.

    We will skip over the fact that the words 'surprizing', 'horrifying' and 'purple' don't appear in any posts previous to yours. Are there are any purple Ceroc franchises anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Whats the difference? You are making a big deal out of the costs.
    You don't know the difference ? I haven't got time to explain right now, but a search on google will help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Extra costs from a franchise are offset by bringing in more, or easier, money - or why do it.
    Horribly naive to think that just because a franchise costs more, it will automatically bring in more money. People who think like that get sold Tower Bridge

    You might get an answer from those that ran Ceroc franchises that failed tho.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Just wondering about this.

    I just wondered what you get if you start up a Ceroc franchise? (If we're allowed to talk about this stuff?).,,
    If a would-be franchisee convinces themselves that they can build a successful business the other question that should be asked is "When it has run its successful course, what are you going to sell, and to whom?". Ceroc has to approve franchisees, so you may find it difficult to sell to someone who has a different vision. You may want to do a sale with condtions, such as keeping the same DJ or teacher, or with other side agreements, but Ceroc may insist on a simple cash deal, and may decide to exercise their option to buy at the agreed price. Giving a relative a special price may not be an option.

    One of the glories of your own business is having your own vision, right or wrong.

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    Re: What benefits do Ceroc bring to a new franchisee ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Horribly naive to think that just because a franchise costs more, it will automatically bring in more money. People who think like that get sold Tower Bridge

    I don't know anyone that thinks like that You seem to be trying to use "more" to mean, "more than if you weren't a franchisee" rather than "more money than you lose" (oh and ignoring the "easier money" bit). Making "more money" than you spend is, in most business circles, considered the mark of a successful business

    Anyway, I would imagine the "easier money" route would be more important to some (at the risk of less profit), especially those who have never ran a business - as its appealing to think at least some of the initial business building graft has been done for you by people with experience. And of course, this is why people then split from the franchise when they think they know it all - they then see franchise fees as a mill around the neck. Unfortunately, people who think they know it all fail all the time. Which is why I think Andy is a success, despite his forthright opinions on things he is confident about, he does not think he knows it all.

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