Who is responsible for injuries through poor teaching

[Gus]

My own fault ... thought I might have elicited some intelligent comments from teh Forum ... what WAS I thinking about? Anyway ... having had to endure far too much champagne at a post-project celebration I'm waaaayyyyyy past caring .... hence the following post ... free form the ravages of good sense and reticence

Anyway ... for the minority who may have actually had a view on the subject ....

The ACTUAL incident was at Stockport last Saturday.

Some ar$e has been teaching aerials/major drops in the N West with seemingly little regard to the capability or mentality of those attending. One if the Uggs who attended said course was at Stockport. Not satisfied by looking like a complete dipstick by stringing a series of such moves together (with due disregard for the music) ... this Neanderthal incarnate then decides to start teaching some newbies how to do them.

At this point, despite the fact I was dancing, I briefly intervened ... telling them to STOP as the moves were being badly executed and taught even worse. Ugg No. 1 waited till I returned to the dance floor and then continued. I had a choice ... go back with the knowledge of further intervention would probably result in a confrontation ... or hope Darwin's rules would apply and Ugg would damage himself.

Looks like I took the wrong option. Half and hour later Ugg totally screwed a move up ... went hurtling across the floor and collided with Pauline (Cheeks), badly bruising her foot.

I'm looking forward to meeting Ugg again so I can take the opportunity to more directly pointing out the error of his ways. More to the point I'd like to find who was teaching such moves and what guidance they were giving. I count both as being responsible and culpable. In the mean time, one of Scotland's best has to learn to dance with a very sore foot. Scarcely seems fair.

[LuLu Baby]

went hurtling across the floor and collided with Pauline (Cheeks), badly bruising her foot.

Poor Pauline Big hugs to you, hope your foot gets better soon!

Lou x

[martingold]

i thought all aerials had been banned from all ceroc venues except competition (or wasnt it a ceroc venue) in which case if he was doing aerials he should have been told politely but firmly that he shouldnt be doing them let alone teaching someone else to
If he had carried on then its down to the venue manager or any member of crew who saw him do it

[Gus]

i thought all aerials had been banned from all ceroc venues except competition (or wasnt it a ceroc venue) in which case if he was doing aerials he should have been told politely but firmly that he shouldnt be doing them let alone teaching someone else to
If he had carried on then its down to the venue manager or any member of crew who saw him do it

Stockport is a Blitz venue ... and they don't seem to have a policy ... that issue came up last wednesday when I saw a chap doing rock'n'roll aerials. As I teach under contract, I have no jurisdiction ... its the Venue Manager who says what goes, whether or not I agree.

Banning is TOOO good for them ... bring back the Wet Haddock I say

[Filthy Monkey]

i thought all aerials had been banned from all ceroc venues...

That's what I understood too. Due to insurance reasons, I think.

I have to be honest, though, unless the teacher did a really bad job, and I think it's unfair to assume that to be the case without knowing more, there is only so much they can do. Ugg No. 1 paid no attention to you in the class, so it seems likely that he ignored any advice on safety or technique given during the workshop.

[Gus]

Ugg No. 1 paid no attention to you in the class, so it seems likely that he ignored any advice on safety or technique given during the workshop.

Sorry ... to clear the confusion. It was a freestyle night ... not a class. Trust me, the next time we meet he will be given little chance to ignore me .... and I'm not refering to Willy Waving Actually ... it will be more fun to make sure Cheeks comes down and deals with him permenantly

[Andy McGregor]

As I said, we all have insurance. I currently have 3 different insurances, two with £5 million indemnity and one with £10 million. In total it costs me just under a grand and I still worry that I might not have covered everything.

If someone is injured at an activity they have paid for they should ask for compensation from the person or organisation they paid. Then it's up to the insurer, solicitors, etc. It may be that the organisation's insurers can pass the responsibility on to the venue, bad teachers, etc. It may be the opinion of the insurer that there is no claim. But the first port of call should always be the person you paid. And their next call should be to their insurer.

[Gus]

If someone is injured at an activity they have paid for they should ask for compensation from the person or organisation they paid. Then it's up to the insurer, solicitors, etc. It may be that the organisation's insurers can pass the responsibility on to the venue, bad teachers, etc. It may be the opinion of the insurer that there is no claim. But the first port of call should always be the person you paid. And their next call should be to their insurer.

Unless the law has recently changed, I was under the impression that the promoter is only liable if they are negligent. Back to common sense ... if someone smashes you in the face with a bottle, is the promoter automatically at fault? If someone injures you through their negligence (i.e. another dancer being a fcukwit) wouldn't you sue them?

[ducasi]

Unless the law has recently changed, I was under the impression that the promoter is only liable if they are negligent. Back to common sense ... if someone smashes you in the face with a bottle, is the promoter automatically at fault? If someone injures you through their negligence (i.e. another dancer being a fcukwit) wouldn't you sue them?

Depends what you want to achieve.

Revenge? Money? A change of behaviour? A change of policy by the promoter?

If I was badly injured at a dance event, and I was sure it wasn't my fault, I might well decide to sue them all – let the courts figure it out. Hopefully, I'd achieve the last three of the four possible aims I've suggested.

[Andy McGregor]

Unless the law has recently changed, I was under the impression that the promoter is only liable if they are negligent. Back to common sense ... if someone smashes you in the face with a bottle, is the promoter automatically at fault? If someone injures you through their negligence (i.e. another dancer being a fcukwit) wouldn't you sue them?

I think that is right about negligence. However, I would say that it is negligent for the owner of a business to allow people to endanger the safety of others at their event. That endangerment could be the failure to intervene when one of their occasional teachers warns them of a situation, or it could be allowing people to drink so much that they are violent or it could even be the provision of glass receptacles that are later used as weapons.

It is never clear who has been negligent and it is up to the owner of the business to have a clear safety statement and enforce the actions on it. I would be surprised if a company as big a Blitz didn't have a safety statement. That means they must have carried out a risk assessment. I would be amazed if they hadn't assessed the risks of dangerous dancing and had a plan in place for dealing with it. Go on Gus, amaze me

I know a business with more than 5 employees must have a Health & Safety Statement for their staff. I'm not sure if they have to have one for their customers. Perhaps the Forum Legal Team could advise.

[Martin]

Firstly it is not good it happened.

After that, comes "what can we do to the best of our ability to stop it happening again"

You cannot change the whole world, but you can have a bit of control of the world around you.. so seeking out the original instructor and having an "I teach better than you" conversation I would consider has limited positive outcome.

What you can do, if you see dangerous or potentially dangerous things happening - is intervene.

To sue is one option - but I am not sure how positive this is (unless there was serious negligence and a serious injury resulting from it)

As to the venue on the night. I would consider any paid staff have a "duty of care" and if they see something that is potentially harmful they need to be involved.

I have been in situations where I have told people a move or moves they are doing are not suitable for this venue with the amount of people here and the dance space available.
In one case I had to go back 3 times, on the 3rd time, the guy tried to ignore me and kept dancing and told me to f**k off (he said much more as well ). So yes there was a confrontation, as I had to ensure he fully understood me.

Confrontation is uncomfortable, but from what you have said since your first post Gus... I think next time, maybe you would go "back again" and make certain there is understanding and acceptance not to do what they were doing.

[Gus]

I would be surprised if a company as big a Blitz didn't have a safety statement. That means they must have carried out a risk assessment. I would be amazed if they hadn't assessed the risks of dangerous dancing and had a plan in place for dealing with it. Go on Gus, amaze me

Don't know, don't care. Spent many years being a royal pain in the ass on the subject of procedures, safety and not using external teachers whom I saw as being dangerous .... all it got me was put out of business. Learned my lesson ... I worry about the teaching and the promoters do what they see fit

[Gus]

Confrontation is uncomfortable, but from what you have said since your first post Gus... I think next time, maybe you would go "back again" and make certain there is understanding and acceptance not to do what they were doing.

I have no authority either under UK law nor under my contract with the promoter. Going outside either puts me at risk. If dancers are too dumb to take care of themselves, why the hell should I put my beck on the line?

Sorry to have such a negative attitude but afetr many years on the scene it never ceases to amaze (depress ?) me that otherwise intelligent people will put themsleves and others at risk of bodily harm doing moves they have not learnt competently.

Unfortunately we need someone to get seriously hurt and a court case to follow before anyone will pay attention. Oh ... and the CTA teachers are not without sin in this area. Seen a numbers of Ceroc classes where RED moves were taught in a class.

[Andy McGregor]

and the CTA teachers are not without sin in this area. Seen a numbers of Ceroc classes where RED moves were taught in a class.

Moves have colours?

[Martin]

Moves have colours?

They do now

[Andy McGregor]

Spent many years being a royal pain in the ass on the subject of procedures, safety and not using external teachers whom I saw as being dangerous .... all it got me was put out of business. Learned my lesson ... I worry about the teaching and the promoters do what they see fit

So how does reducing the risk to your customers put you out of business? It sounds to me like Gus went out of business for being a pain in the ass - I hope that's not true, 'cos I'm also "a royal pain in the ass". I make an art form of it - just call me the Majesty of Ass Pain

[Andy McGregor]

They do now

I don't like moves named after colours. Colours are never dangerous. How about naming them after birds. You could start with chicken (safe moves), peacock (showy moves), work your way through seagull (dirty moves) and swan (classy, floaty moves) to Eagle (dangerous moves).

Vulture moves could be the ones you do on the victims of other people's moves.

[Martin]

I have no authority either under UK law nor under my contract with the promoter. Going outside either puts me at risk. If dancers are too dumb to take care of themselves, why the hell should I put my beck on the line?

Because someone might get hurt, and it could be a friend of yours.

[Martin]

I don't like moves named after colours. Colours are never dangerous. How about naming them after birds. You could start with chicken (safe moves), peacock (showy moves), work your way through seagull (dirty moves) and swan (classy, floaty moves) to Eagle (dangerous moves).

Vulture moves could be the ones you do on the victims of other people's moves.

dodo - old moves

duck - ariels

swallow - very suggestive moves

Turkey - moves that end with a slap

Kiwi - moves down under

[Gus]

So how does reducing the risk to your customers put you out of business? It sounds to me like Gus went out of business for being a pain in the ass - I hope that's not true, 'cos I'm also "a royal pain in the ass". I make an art form of it - just call me the Majesty of Ass Pain

Andy ... I know you are being stupid on purpose ... otherwise it would be a marvel that you managed to work out how to breathe in and out on a continuing basis ....

I WAS part of a large Northern Based Jive association some yaers back ... at the monthly meetings I pushed the safety aspect on a regular basis, with respect to PLI, how a knife incident was dealt with, the use of an instuctor with a know reputation and other such boring stuf ... I eventualy had my franchisee contract revoked ..... Enough information now????