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Thread: Define "Evil"

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Define "Evil"

    Didn't want to derail Troubles Thread but I'm interested in what people define as Evil ?

    Killing yourself and your kids? Evil or Suicidal insanity?
    Locking your daughter in the cellar for yonks and fathering children by her? Evil or a father’s madness and some misguided attempt to shelter her from "the world outside"?

    Many(most) would say atrocities committed during WWII were evil.. and not just by Germany or Japan either.

    World Trade Centre bombings? Not praying to your particular division of God inc?.. Not praying at all? Lumpy custard? (That's my particular brand of evil.. right up there next to marmite!)

    What "exactly" is Evil? Is madness inherently evil? can you truly define evil without religious overtones? (or undertones/ringtones/stylophones/homophones etc)

    Can you discuss evil without the concept of hell or Satan.. ( or Santa if you're dyslexic)

    lets not get bogged down in who's right and who's wrong but have an open discussion on your view of evil ?

    *Walks off Playing "Ave Maria" on his religious stylophone

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Lumpy custard? (That's my particular brand of evil.. right up there next to marmite!)

    *Walks off Playing "Ave Maria" on his religious stylophone
    Nooooooooo Marmite is lovely in a cheese sandwich
    oh and i like your stylaphone playing

    Back to the topic imho its simple evil is when you do something to somebody else knowing in your mind what harm you will cause and yet still going ahead and doing it

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    'Evil' as a concept doesn't work outside religion, where it works as the antithesis of 'good', 'righteous', blah blah.

    For the rest of us, it usually works like this.

    "X was so repellent, so abhorrent, so far away from accepted conduct of mankind, that I can't deal with it so I'll slap a label on it 'EVIL'; that way I can just move on and think about other things."

    Describing the holocaust as 'evil', or the people who perpetrated it as 'evil', doesn't do much other than express the horror of the speaker. For anyone who is interested in reducing the incidence of such things in future (and there have been plenty of subsequent examples, not on quite such a large scale) it's a requirement to set aside labels, roll up the sleeves and analyse why it happened.

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    I agree.. Evil is a premeditated attempt to cause as much misery, anguish and heartache as possible (IMHO) BUT (and it’s a big but.. like my Big Butt) I personally think to be classified as EVIL it has to be done with a clear mind fully aware of your actions.

    If you’re suffering from some form of psychosis, depression, delusion, obsession etc, can you’re actions be truly classified as evil or as a mental disorder. I’m not a big fan of the get out clause of “on the grounds of diminished responsibility” but it’s in the court system for a reason.

    Is it possible for a sane mind to be evil? Or is Evil itself a form of madness ?? We have tablets for depression and schizophrenia.. do you think it plausible or even possible that some day there will be a chemical cure for Evil?

    EDIT

    Sorry Barry cross posted.

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Nooooooooo Marmite is lovely in a cheese sandwich
    oh and i like your stylaphone playing

    Back to the topic imho its simple evil is when you do something to somebody else knowing in your mind what harm you will cause and yet still going ahead and doing it
    Your definition would include a soldier in battle, a prison guard accepting a new inmate, someone helping their loved partner to die instead of living in degradation and agony. Is that what you intended?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Locking your daughter in the cellar for yonks and fathering children by her? Evil or a father’s madness and some misguided attempt to shelter her from "the world outside"?
    Actually, I would class that one as evil.

    He clearly functioned well as a pillar of society, ho ho, for the time he was committing those crimes, so it's difficult to argue he was insane for several decades, whilst holding down a good job, having another family, etc.

    In my view, he knew, unambiguously, that what he was doing was wrong, and that it was harmful to other people - yet he did it anyway, on a daily basis for many years. If that's not evil, nothing is.

    Whereas I don't automatically think "they're evil" about the "moment of madness" parents who reach such depths of depression that suicide and child-killing is the only way out. Like that woman who jumped off the Severn Bridge a few months ago with her kid. Tragic, of course, but not necessarily evil.

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Many(most) would say atrocities committed during WWII were evil.. and not just by Germany or Japan either.
    But are we talking atrocities or people - not all people who commit evil atrocities are evil.

    What "exactly" is Evil? Is madness inherently evil? can you truly define evil without religious overtones? (or undertones/ringtones/stylophones/homophones etc)
    Of course - I think the concept of good/evil are fairly basic and exist for all religious or non-religious people - our moral fabric is based on knowing.

    lets not get bogged down in who's right and who's wrong but have an open discussion on your view of evil ?
    What is "evil" is an ever changing social concept. Paedophilia is seen as evil now, but it was only a few centuries ago where marriages for ages 12 and over were common in western europe. Killing innocents is not seen as evil if you hold yourself to a different moral code that you feel these "innocents" are lacking in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Back to the topic imho its simple evil is when you do something to somebody else knowing in your mind what harm you will cause and yet still going ahead and doing it
    Thats quite a good summary - but it is still true that the social norms of what "harm" is may cause you to think differently. e.g. would an impressionable German who grew up with the Hitler youth think the death of a jew as equal to the death of a "true" German ?

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Actually, I would class that one as evil.

    In my view, he knew, unambiguously, that what he was doing was wrong, and that it was harmful to other people - yet he did it anyway, on a daily basis for many years. If that's not evil, nothing is.
    Am just playing the Devils Advocate.. not to be confused with The Devils Advocaat which is a sickly yellow drink that sits on the shelf gathering dust unopenned and unused ever since some guy called Damian brought it to your house warming 5 years ago !!

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Advocaat which is a ......yellow drink that sits on the shelf gathering dust unopenned and unused
    add equal measures of Advocaat and bitter lemon (Parisian) and you'll end up serving drinks all night.

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Actually, I would class that one as evil.

    He clearly functioned well as a pillar of society, ho ho, for the time he was committing those crimes, so it's difficult to argue he was insane for several decades, whilst holding down a good job, having another family, etc.
    Except for this:

    What 'useful' definition of sanity includes someone who imprisons and rapes his daughter and subsequently imprisons their offspring - for decades? Insanity isn't confined to people who are unable to tie their shoelaces because they think they're poisonous snakes put there by aliens from the planet Zog masquerading as Napoleon.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Except for this:

    What 'useful' definition of sanity includes someone who imprisons and rapes his daughter and subsequently imprisons their offspring - for decades?
    I don't understand. Do you think "sane" = "good" then?

    It's very difficult to define "sanity", though. It's more useful to define "insanity" - or more precisely, specific mental disorders. If someone's not suffering from such a disorder, then the presumption is that they're sane, surely?

    Whereas "Evil" is more than just "an absence of Good" to me.

    And I'm not sure I'd label a person as being evil.

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    Evil is a premeditated attempt to cause as much misery, anguish and heartache as possible (IMHO) BUT (and it’s a big but.. like my Big Butt) I personally think to be classified as EVIL it has to be done with a clear mind fully aware of your actions.
    I agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    BUT (and it's a big but.. like my Big Butt)

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Women are evil. By definition.

    Women, as we all know are time and money. Any business man will tell you that time is money!!

    so...
    women = time x money
    time = money, therefore
    women = money2 (squared)

    It is accepted wisdom that money is the root of all evil.

    therefore
    money = /evil (sqaure root)
    therefore
    money2 (Squared) = evil.

    So,
    women = money2 (squared) = evil

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Women are evil. By definition.

    Women, as we all know are time and money. Any business man will tell you that time is money!!

    so...
    women = time x money
    time = money, therefore
    women = money2 (squared)

    It is accepted wisdom that money is the root of all evil.

    therefore
    money = /evil (sqaure root)
    therefore
    money2 (Squared) = evil.

    So,
    women = money2 (squared) = evil
    CJ! I think I should feel insulted in a way, but I don't! I just find this really funny!

    So, CJ... you could live without women? The world would be a better place? I think not!

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by LuLu Baby View Post
    CJ! I think I should feel insulted in a way, but I don't! I just find this really funny!

    So, CJ... you could live without women? The world would be a better place? I think not!
    I think the arithmetic confused you and you're using the withdrawal argument to cover up your embarrassment. Or is that me implying the dizzy blonde argument?

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I think the arithmetic confused you and you're using the withdrawal argument to cover up your embarrassment. Or is that me implying the dizzy blonde argument?
    Hey! I can be smart when I want to be! I just never want to be! (don't argue with me dep )

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Your definition would include a soldier in battle, a prison guard accepting a new inmate, someone helping their loved partner to die instead of living in degradation and agony. Is that what you intended?
    Maybe i miss worded it a bit as i am not really known for my use of words
    I can see what you are saying Barry and no i didnt intend to include these things as in all those cases there could be just cause to the intention maybe i should have added without just cause

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by LuLu Baby View Post
    Hey! I can be smart when I want to be! I just never want to be!

    now that comment was worth some rep

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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post


    What is "evil" is an ever changing social concept. Paedophilia is seen as evil now, but it was only a few centuries ago where marriages for ages 12 and over were common in western europe. Killing innocents is not seen as evil if you hold yourself to a different moral code that you feel these "innocents" are lacking in some way.


    Thats quite a good summary - but it is still true that the social norms of what "harm" is may cause you to think differently. e.g. would an impressionable German who grew up with the Hitler youth think the death of a jew as equal to the death of a "true" German ?


    Any definition of evil has to be taken in the context of the direction you are looking at it from- your society and your time in history. We are all looking from Christian Western Europe 21st century. We might regard the people who bombed the World Trade Centre as evil, but many millions of Moslems in the world don't - they're heroes. We are the evil ones as we don't believe in Islam / Mohammed.

    Hitler didn't believe what he was doing was evil and neither did many milions of Germans at the time. They were protecting what they saw as infiltration into their 'pure' blood by Jews, gypsies, thoes with physical or mental disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, the dissenting clergy, Communists and so on. Some small sacrifices for the greater good.

    Thousands of well meaning old women have been burnt at the stake over the centuries as witches. The figures in authority at the time thought they were helping society by rooting out the evil ones but who would we now define as evil? The witches or those who conducted the witchunt?

    And as DS says, many societies see nothing wrong in child sex and incest. Who are we to sit in judgement on the rest of the world?

    ps these aren't necessarily my views - I'm just setting up an alternative argument!

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Define "Evil"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brighton Belle View Post

    Any definition of evil has to be taken in the context of the direction you are looking at it from- your society and your time in history.
    (snip)
    Who are we to sit in judgement on the rest of the world?

    ps these aren't necessarily my views - I'm just setting up an alternative argument!

    Some very good points there
    This reminds me of the time i went to Dubai to install some mill equipment
    I met all sorts of indian tradesmen i found out that the sheiks bought indian children to train as camel jockeys (the eldest jockeys at the time were about 7 yrs) if the child became a top jockey then they became very wealthy if not then they were taught a trade
    On the surface of it people from the west might think its evil to trade children however
    These children would probably have starved to death in india.
    their parents by selling them made some money to feed the rest of their family and ensured that the particular child in question grew up healthy and with some way of making money

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