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Thread: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

  1. #41
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    As silly as it sounds, I think women would learn to follow much better without learning the moves!

    I know a lady, who joined shortly after me, hated the lessons and only ever did one and from what I can see, she's a great little dancer now!
    Good for her. She is letting the other ladies do the work, and then taking advantage of their efforts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain View Post
    I disagree. I'm aware that the standard of my dancing decreases if I dance with too many men who aren't very good.

    Therefore to keep me up to standard, I need to dance with all the best men! (I suppose that's a bit like doing a lesson)
    Brings up the question whether it is reasonable to turn down ladies who you never came near you until they saw you had gotten (relatively) good (taking advantage of other ladies efforts as above).

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    It's my view of how other males act. Mostly. There are exceptions, but I've not seen many experienced male dancers - not taxi dancers, just general punters - who go along to beginner classes with the sole aim of Helping Beginners Out.

    Perhaps I just live in a nasty mean-spirited area though.
    Hmmm..... I used to do beginner classes long after I'd stopped getting much out of them.

    I used to get asked why I was there when I obviously knew what I was doing, and I'd guess a few of the ladies thought I was on the pull.

    The truth was that the beginners classes started shortly after 6, and I finished work in the same area at 5. Staying in town and getting a bite to eat before hand was just much easier than spending an hour going home during rush hour and then rushing to cook something before running out the door to make the 7pm intermediate class in time. Doing the beginner class was a reasonable way to pass the time until 7 if I didn't have anything else to do.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Having said that, I find that followers who have never done classes tend to have an idiosyncratic following style that complicates my life as a leader.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    I usually do the beginners' lessons even when I'm not on taxi duty. Partly it's to help the beginners, but more because it's a pretty good way of warming up before freestyle.

    Mind you, if a pretzel or other arm-twisty move is being taught then I usually do it once or twice then drop out. I'm sure some people must think I'm avoiding them, but I've had enough shoulder injuries to know that I don't want to risk more.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Or buy me a pint, and I'll slag off your dancing for free.
    Free except for the cost of a pint that is!

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    No. Read the thread.
    Read it all properly now but following the post you directed me to Andy has said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    To give you an idea of my current thinking on this subject, we had a couple of ladies visit from the class down the road. They came saying "we'd reached a dead end in terms of learning and had been recommended to come here" at the end of the night they said "next week we'll bring some of the guys from XXXXX". My reply was that I'd rather they didn't. I explained that it takes much longer to train out a bad habit than it takes to create a good one - and I'd rather not have guys in my lesson who have bad habits that were created by other teachers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    By training people from scratch, developing good relationships with people who teach real MJ and not trying to attract people who have learned at classes where the teacher hasn't a clue.
    That is why I wondered if I'd be allowed through the door

    Anyway back on topic. I used to go along to beginners classes to try and help out with the general men shortage. It was more due to pressures of work that I was working later and not really able to make it for beginners classes.

  6. #46
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    But, if the organizers 'want' to attract more experienced dancers to join in the lessons, maybe they 'should' let them do it for free?

    I have to admit, (not that the money is a big issue) but if I join in, I feel a bit like I'm paying to help and if I turn up later, I get in cheaper, so it's not really much incentive, is it?
    I would like to see more experienced followers in the intermediate class and like I said months ago I think the best way to achieve that would be through a loyality card...
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Good idea if we had more experienced followers attending class.
    I think this would help greatly to if they pass on there knowledge to less experienced dancers. Sure this might mean the 10 ladies over might grow to 30 or 40 ladies over but is that really a problem if it is explained that followers don't need to learn the moves? I think this would really help things.
    Leads would get more reliable followers in class to practice with.
    Followers would not know the moves as well so would hopefully learn quicker to follow a lead and not what the teacher is doing.

    How could we incentive the more experienced dancers to go to class.

    Well one idea might be that if a person has attended 100 classes they become a Ceroc Gold Card member. You would hope after 100 classes you would have some valuable knowledge to pass on to newbie's.

    With this Gold card ladies could get to come to the intermediate class for say £2 off normal price and maybe gold card guys could get a £2 off entry if they attend beginners class so helping new followers.

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So, I've decided I need a lesson (thinks, does this need a new thread?) at the start of my mid-week freestyle. It can't be a beginners lesson because, well, it can't, obviously - once I've done a beginners lesson I've got beginners and they'd want a beginners refresher and, in six weeks an intermediate lesson: then it'd be like all my other nights and the freestyle would be shorter.
    Sounds like you want to do a interesting little 20 minute easy intermediate fun class.

    I usually like to attend the "Fun Classes" at the start of the Dundee and Edinburgh party nights. There a great little mixer and usually I do pick up a move or two from them which is actually useful.

    On regular class nights I usually try and make the last 15 minutes or so of the beginners class for the following reaons:-

    1) It's a good warm up.

    2) Makes me feel good as a slightly more experienced dancer to help out the less experienced dancers get better.
    (I really respect the dancers who did that for me and I now have a lot of them as friends/favourite dance partners and by doing the same I seem to be reaping the same rewards.)

    3) Classes are a good opertunity to socialise with your fellow dancers.

    4) By going eary I'm getting maxiumum value for money as well

    DD.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by pmjd View Post
    That is why I wondered if I'd be allowed through the door.
    Of course you'd be welcomed (or are you agreeing with my line about "not trying to attract people who have learned at classes where the teacher hasn't a clue" ).

    I must admit that it's been getting to me recently. I've have a policy of not advertising for more beginners than I think is enough to make the night a great mix of abilities and experience. However, a class down the road has massive advertising campaigns on local radio that mean that the class is sometimes 50% beginners or very early beginners. I think this is wrong on many levels;

    The beginners do not progress very quickly as they're more likely to partner another complete beginner in the lesson.

    The above situation means that beginners are less likely to learn MJ (even if it was taught properly) and more likely to quit - this means they are less likely to try it again when they see my advertising

    After three to six months at these dodgy classes they've developed a batch of bad habits and have our classes recommended to them by some well wisher at a dance. They come along and defiantly do their semi-circle, frame breaky, giant back-step, etc. And I can't stop myself trying to correct this fault when I see it during the lesson

    So now I have a situation where I will do nothing to encourage migration from the competition. Some of the guys are so bad it's like a disability that, potentially puts others in danger of injury - I've almost reached the point where I think it should be put in my Health and Safety statement!

    As an aside, we had to speak with one of our Taxi Dancers recently about inappropriate touching of young ladies. He wasn't a great dancer, but not bad, knows the beginners moves and is friendly (a bit too friendly ). He took umbrage and defected to this other class. My opinion was that his moving had raised the level of both classes
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 17th-June-2008 at 07:49 AM.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Sounds like you want to do a interesting little 20 minute easy intermediate fun class.
    Perfect suggestion. Have some rep

  10. #50
    Registered User Daisy Chain's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post


    Brings up the question whether it is reasonable to turn down ladies who you never came near you until they saw you had gotten (relatively) good (taking advantage of other ladies efforts as above).
    Also brings up the question whether it is reasonable to turn down men who never came near you until they saw that you had become relatively good... Actually, silly me. This isn't going to happen - Men will still choose a young pretty beginner thing over us older more experienced offerings .

    Daisy

    (An Older Experienced Littel Flower)

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Its not the dancing with the men ... its the learning from the teacher. Isn't that what those herberts on stage are supposed to be doing ... teaching us mortals?
    But bog standard class night lessons teach me practically nothing about following and plenty about backleading.

    Whereas dancing with several excellent men on the trot in freestyle seems to really improve my following skills and I become less clumsy.


    Daisy

    (An Unteachable Little Flower)

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain View Post
    Actually, silly me. This isn't going to happen - Men will still choose a young pretty beginner thing over us older more experienced offerings .
    No no, get it right, they're 'helping' them!
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    As silly as it sounds, I think women would learn to follow much better without learning the moves!
    Sort of how I learned. I did the equivalent of beginner classes with some improver moves thrown in for a few months, then almost no classes - just dancing at Southport weekenders, for a couple of years - and that is really where I learnt to follow - I didn't know the moves, so I just had to follow!

    I don't usually do the intermediate class as there are extra ladies and I don't want to increase the numbers. But recently there were a few weeks when there was little or no imbalance so I joined in. From the comments I got from the men on the way round - this was definitely a good thing as they all think I don't do the classes cos I already 'know all the moves' (yeah right!) and can help them learn. Therefore doing the class makes the leads more likely to come to me in the freestyle bit and say 'can I practice the routine with you?' (this usually happens anyway but more so when I do the class).

    I still see class nights as me 'putting in' as much as thinking about what I'm 'getting out' of it. Yeah, I do want a few dances, near the end of the night, where I am just relaxing and having fun, but basically I still see myself as there to help. And this is of course partly for selfish reasons as some of those men I nagged for years/persuaded/dragged along to dancing are ones I love dancing with now.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    No no, get it right, they're 'helping' them!
    Of course, the problem is when you get to my age you just cannot help the PYTs quite as frequently or as vigorously as you used to

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    As I said, I reckon most male dancers say they want to help because they want to cherry-pick the new talent.

    I don't really trust altruism as a motive, give me naked self-interest any day.
    Well - today's beginners are tomorrow's intermediates, are next week's advanced dancers - so long as they stay the course. Any gentle help / encouragement I give to newcomers will pay dividends further down the line. If I help out in a beginners' class, perhaps I don't do it to help the individuals. Perhaps I do it because I want more great dancers to dance with - it's just a long-term investment of a small amount of my time.

    How's that for naked self interest?
    Last edited by straycat; 18th-June-2008 at 08:52 AM.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Well - today's beginners are tomorrow's intermediates, are next week's advanced dancers - so long as they stay the course. Any gentle help / encouragement I give to newcomers will pay dividends further down the line. If I help out in a beginners' class, perhaps I don't do it to help the individuals. Perhaps I do it because I want more great dancers to dance with - it's just a long-term investment of a small amount of my time.

    How's that for naked self interest?
    Yep - I want good dancers to dance with and that means I need to put the time into helping them along the way.

    Add to that my natural 'teaching' inclination - I love seeing people learn and feel good about themselves because they've just achieved something.

    Plus the fact that a fair few of the guys in local classes are personal friends (outside of dancing) or friends of friends.

    That all adds together to mean its not a 'chore' to spend time encouraging others and helping them learn.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    How's that for naked self interest?
    Yeah, I've heard that one too.

    I only find it even vaguely plausible if you have a regular, long-term venue, and you want to help raise the standard at that venue. I don't find it plausible if you're trying to raise the standard of dancers in the entire MJ scene.

    Bear in mind, again, we're not talking about social dancing with beginners, we're talking about spending significant extra time, and some extra money, to do a beginner's class, simply to "help out" on a regular basis. I just don't believe many experienced male dancers do this.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    ............... we're not talking about social dancing with beginners, we're talking about spending significant extra time, and some extra money, to do a beginner's class, simply to "help out" on a regular basis. I just don't believe many experienced male dancers do this.
    I don't know if Edinburgh is typical, but the majority of the male Leaders attend the beginners' classes.
    We have only a few that opt out and do only the intermediate and/or social dancing.

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I don't know if Edinburgh is typical, but the majority of the male Leaders attend the beginners' classes.
    We have only a few that opt out and do only the intermediate and/or social dancing.
    Ah. well, you're clearly all a bunch of leches then

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    Re: Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Ah. well, you're clearly all a bunch of leches then
    and what evidence do you have to support your (allegedly erroneous) conclusion?

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