Reasons For Doing Lessons - For Yourself Or To Help?

[Lynn]

Bear in mind, again, we're not talking about social dancing with beginners, we're talking about spending significant extra time, and some extra money, to do a beginner's class, simply to "help out" on a regular basis. I just don't believe many experienced male dancers do this.

I don't do the beginners class, I thought we were just talking about classes in general.

The beginners at our venues have a bunch of great taxis to help them, I focus instead on helping intermediates - either as someone to practice moves with (cos I will follow what they lead rather than backlead them through it) or if there is something they are working on putting into their dancing at that time.

[David Bailey]

I don't do the beginners class, I thought we were just talking about classes in general.

I'm mainly focussing on experienced male dancers doing beginner classes. Dunno what everyone else is talking about...

[dep]

Ah. well, you're clearly all a bunch of leches then

I'm mainly focussing on experienced male dancers doing beginner classes. Dunno what everyone else is talking about...

and clearly not focusing on giving and/or understanding a balanced and unbiased viewpoint.

[ducasi]

Bear in mind, again, we're not talking about social dancing with beginners, we're talking about spending significant extra time, and some extra money, to do a beginner's class, simply to "help out" on a regular basis. I just don't believe many experienced male dancers do this.

I'm a hotshot who prefers to spend an extra hour or so relaxing at home, maybe reading the forum or chatting with friends, and saving some money, rather than checking out the beginners' class for new totty.

[David Bailey]

and clearly not focusing on giving and/or understanding a balanced and unbiased viewpoint.

I'm hurt.

All I can say is

[marcusj]

I'm a hotshot who prefers to spend an extra hour or so relaxing at home, maybe reading the forum or chatting with friends, and saving some money, rather than checking out the beginners' class for new totty.

Right on the money for me - that's what I'm talking about

[straycat]

Bear in mind, again, we're not talking about social dancing with beginners, we're talking about spending significant extra time, and some extra money, to do a beginner's class, simply to "help out" on a regular basis. I just don't believe many experienced male dancers do this.

I have done this with a small scene that I cared about, and would again - and I know several leads who do the same (although I'm talking Lindy here)

A larger well established scene.... I'd be less likely to. But then - it would need it less.

[David Bailey]

I have done this with a small scene that I cared about, and would again - and I know several leads who do the same (although I'm talking Lindy here)

A larger well established scene.... I'd be less likely to. But then - it would need it less.

Oi, when'd you lose the 264 thing?

I dunno, all these people changing their labels all over the place...

[Andy McGregor]

I'm a hotshot who prefers to spend an extra hour or so relaxing at home, maybe reading the forum or chatting with friends, and saving some money, rather than checking out the beginners' class for new totty.

Speaking as someone who teaches at least 3 beginners classes a week, I find that help from, self-appointed, hotshots is a double-edged sword.

We do benefit from having experienced dancers in the lesson as it's less likely that you'll get a novice/novice pairing. But you do suffer from the experienced dancers talking with/coaching/distracting the beginners who should be paying attention to the teacher. On balance I like having experienced dancers in the beginners lesson - and I note who they are when recruiting crew and when considering who I should give free workshop places to balance the sexes.

[straycat]

Oi, when'd you lose the 264 thing?

I dunno, all these people changing their labels all over the place...

Speaking as someone who teaches at least 3 beginners classes a week, I find that help from, self-appointed, hotshots is a double-edged sword.

We do benefit from having experienced dancers in the lesson as it's less likely that you'll get a novice/novice pairing. But you do suffer from the experienced dancers talking with/coaching/distracting the beginners who should be paying attention to the teacher.

Agree completely. If I do go in for a beginners' class in a dance where I'm (supposedly) advanced, I'd say my role is to provide a good clear lead, a friendly face, and the occasional (quiet) encouraging noises if required. I'm not there to 'teach' anyone anything - it's discourteous to the teacher, it's distracting to everyone else, and it can be confusing for the beginner. I'll try to answer a direct question if asked one, but that's about it.

[Jan in Notts]

On balance I like having experienced dancers in the beginners lesson.

I have started attending the beginners classes again with a friend who is new to MJ and I am using the class as a way to improve my technique - would I be regarded as a help or a hindrance? I think that as I am paying the full admission fee I should be able to attend both classes as long as I am not being a distraction. When taking part in the class I hope that I offer encouragement rather than advice unless specifically asked - funnily enough no-one has asked for it recently.

Jan

[Rocky]

The vast majority of people who do MJ in this country think they are much better than they actually are - and this reflects a constant problem. Beginners want to move to intermediate and then to advanced far to quickly. Of course I understand the drive behind this. But if you watch many dancers you will see that they actually don't know how to execute the basic moves (forget the complex ones) with any real style.

Pretty much everyone that attends Twickenham does the classes, but I'm amazed at how many people choose to sit out when I visit other venues. And yet when the dancing starts they often appear to be the ones that would have benifitted the most from doing the class!

So as regards the thread - most people should continue to do beginners lessons because:

1.) Once they are comfortable with the move they can then concentrate on how best to lead it (this is always of course assuming that they are concentrating in the class rather than just going through the motions). If you concentrate on each move you can play around with body weight, foot movements and the required 'strength' of your lead - and the same if you are an experienced follower. You generally don't have this luxury in freestyle which is why many dancers persist in compounding basic style, timing or leading problems. Put very simply it means you get the chance to think about what you are doing in a way that was difficult to do when you were learning the moves in the first instance.

2.) If you are an experienced lead you can assist new followers by being definite in your lead so that they have less reliance on thinking that they need to watch or listen to the teach. Just as Lory says, followers should learn to follow, not learn to do moves. And if you are an experienced follower, you can assist new leads by helping them come to terms with how definite their lead needs to be.

As Val's stooge I was impressed by how much my dancing improved when I began demoing in the beginners class. Doing the moves week in week out meant that either I just switched off, or I took that time to really think about how the move was created, lead and followed. And before you ask, I did the latter..

So experienced dancers should continue to do the classes and lessons for themselves and to help others - but most won't...

[geoff332]

...cherry-pick the new talent...

...give me naked ... any day.

Funny how a little editing can do to reveal someone's underlying thoughts.

Everyone should do lessons for their own reasons. Anything else is, as suggested, fundamentally untrustworthy. There are a handful of genuine altruists in the world, but most people are motivated by more basic instincts. For me, I've been learning relatively little from lessons. It's very rare I see a move that I've not done before (or a near variant). And the teaching in class is typically more basic than I've learnt, so I get very few technical tips. So I do the intermediate class to warm up and meet people.

If I'm trying to cherry pick the new talent, then I've consistently failed miserably.

[David Bailey]

Funny how a little editing can do to reveal someone's underlying thoughts.

Underlying? Hardly, more like overlying.

[Andy McGregor]

The vast majority of people who do MJ in this country think they are much better than they actually are -

-snip-

So experienced dancers should continue to do the classes and lessons for themselves and to help others - but most won't...

Almost all of the people at our classes do the lessons. However, we have a few guys who have never been taught by me who turn up for the freestyle. If they get there after the lesson has ended I'm not bothered. But it bugs me when the arrive for the first freestyle and sit out the intermediate lesson chatting - especially if they have a loud laugh as the people getting it wrong in the lesson might take it personally.

Like Rocky, I find that many people aren't as good as they think they are. Those guys at our classes who sit out the lesson aren't remotely good. They have a limited repertoire of badly executed moves and can't fit them properly to the beat - I've never taught these guys, I'm not sure where they learnt their MJ. The guys who sit out often feel they can give me advice on music - it's almost always music that's too slow or too fast or has a long intro - but that doesn't really matter if you're not hearing the beat in the first place. I was watching one of the guys who sits out and he seems to always lead the lady forwards and dance as if there are six beats to the bar. When he can hear the beat at all The weird thing is that "Mr Six beats" has started his own nights on two occasions - both times were very short-lived.

I'm considering changing the rules. I think that people who don't do the lesson shouldn't stay in the room as it is distracting to the people who do actually do the lesson. But how do I enforce this without seeming heavy-handed? I'm thinking about using pricing. At the moment these guys say "I'm not doing the lesson" and get in for £2 less. Our discount is really for people who arrive after 9.30. However, one of the guys who watches and laughs is retired and gets in for £3 less, even if he arrives at the start of the night

[Daisy Chain]

I'm considering changing the rules. I think that people who don't do the lesson shouldn't stay in the room as it is distracting to the people who do actually do the lesson. But how do I enforce this without seeming heavy-handed? :

Ooo, yes please - it would be great if the 2nd room could have freestyle music playing for those who choose not to do the lessons - then you wouldn't have to drop prices.

I usually do the lesson, but choose to opt out of lessons with dips and drops (aggravates my dodgy knees) and intimate close moves (I don't want to be groped by strange men - although I have no problem being groped by the really attractive men ).

I prefer teachers who don't teach such moves every class night - in fact, I actively attend nights where these teachers are not teaching.

Daisy

(A Fussy Little FLower)