Utopia - victim of its own success?

[Gus]

Once more, failed to make it down but.......

Early morning conversation with a few who did go led to an interesting point. Utopia has been well publicised and is now a successful commercial venture. As a consequence there has been a greater awareness of this place as a 'place to dance' .... so dancers who were not part of the original Utopia posse have been coming ... and some might say lowering the standard. A few observed that the set last night was different, less WCS-able tracks to accommodate the newbies.

True? Unfair interpretation? Is it a fact that ALL top venues must always succumb to the influx of the 'less-good-dancers' a la the Fall of Hipsters?

[frodo]

... A few observed that the set last night was different, less WCS-able tracks to accommodate the newbies...

Strange thing to say. It isn't like WCS music is difficult to dance to. And good dancers should be able to dance WCS to most tracks.

Maybe they mean the R&B music style puts off newbies, perhaps it is a taste that takes a long time to aquire.

[Cruella]

Once more, failed to make it down but.......

Early morning conversation with a few who did go led to an interesting point. Utopia has been well publicised and is now a successful commercial venture. As a consequence there has been a greater awareness of this place as a 'place to dance' .... so dancers who were not part of the original Utopia posse have been coming ... and some might say lowering the standard. A few observed that the set last night was different, less WCS-able tracks to accommodate the newbies.

True? Unfair interpretation? Is it a fact that ALL top venues must always succumb to the influx of the 'less-good-dancers' a la the Fall of Hipsters?

It was sold out, so how is that a victim of it's own success? Yes the crowd that were there were different from the original crowd that used to go, and alot of those that are considered 'the faces' weren't there. This is surely not a bad thing, as it means new discoveries. I danced with some I had never danced with before and thoroughly enjoyed dancing with them, they were as good a standard as others that no longer attend every month. I agree that the music was different to usual but I wouldn't say that there was less WCS, although I was consciously not dancing WCS as I had heels on. They seemed to be trying out quite a few new tracks last night, some worked, some didn't. But that is why Utopia is popular, because it's not the same old stuff all the time.

[Minnie M]

.... A few observed that the set last night was different, less WCS-able tracks to accommodate the newbies..........

I lurved last night, yes the music was slightly different but still in keeping with the Utopia feel

Rocky and Foxy are great DJs and like all good DJs (and businessmen) they know how to keep ALL the floor happy. What is wrong with that ???

I loved finishing the evening with "Hit the Road Jack" it left me with a real high



PS: Just read Cruella post - she has said it all and actually answered your questions (wish I was more eloquent)

Utopia virgins appear every month travelling from all over - and they appear to merge in with everyone very nicely.

I think the continuing success of Utopia is more to do with the friendliness of everyone - there is no 'snootiness' at all

[dep]

I see we have a couple of Utopias planned for Edinburgh soon.

What are they?
How are they different?

[Gus]

Strange thing to say. It isn't like WCS music is difficult to dance to. And good dancers should be able to dance WCS to most tracks.

Thats a strange thing to say WCS music IS difficult to dance to if you are a Cerocer ... its too sloooooooow. Then again, it depends if by 'good' you mean 'advanced' ...

Maybe they mean the R&B music style puts off newbies, perhaps it is a taste that takes a long time to aquire.

Actualy, and I apologise for my poor attempt, I was saying the exact opposite. It was a Coaster who was commenting there seemed to be fewer WCS tracks played.

It was sold out, so how is that a victim of it's own success?

I wasn't commenting on its commercial viability, more that an influx of 'less-talented' dancers. could dimminish the experience ... if indeed that was true.

Yes the crowd that were there were different from the original crowd that used to go, and alot of those that are considered 'the faces' weren't there. ......I agree that the music was different to usual but I wouldn't say that there was less WCS, although I was consciously not dancing WCS as I had heels on. .

Interesting ... similar comments were made to me, but were seen less positively than you. THATS why I raised the question. Its very easy to hear from one group of people that such and such an event was good/poor ... but unless you get a view from a wider population, then its hard to take an informed view.

Thanks for the comments. I'm a real fan of what Utopia is trying to do ... one day I might even make it to the desolate wasteland of the Deep South. In the mean time I'll have to console myself with Utopia Derby next Friday

[Zebra Woman]

Gus

Why don't you go to Utopia?

Then you might begin to know what you're talking about.

[tsh]

Thats a strange thing to say WCS music IS difficult to dance to if you are a Cerocer ... its too sloooooooow. Then again, it depends if by 'good' you mean 'advanced' ...

Much as it pains me, I have to admit to preferring much of the music played last night, although I failed to dance WCS to any of it - although I felt most was suitable for WCS.

I actually felt that the standard was higher than last time I was there, so maybe the range is reduced.

I'd agree that just because it's a sell-out doesn't mean it's as much of a success as it could be. If there is a demand for R&B music advertise this as the theme and stick to it.

Sean

[Zebra Woman]

Gus

Why don't you go to Utopia?

Then you might begin to know what you're talking about.

Sorry I sound a bit narked here. What I mean is (as was said last week) just because people are dancing WCS does not mean that WCS music is being played or that the music is too slow to dance MJ.

I been to every single Utopia except one. Many times I have found myself dancing with a non WCS dancer to a slower track. In my experience the slower tracks at Utopia are always jiveable. Maybe challenging - but still jiveable.

I thought the music and dancing was great last night, there was just one track I didn't like.

ZW

[geoff332]

One of the human race's most fundamental basic instincts is to equate "change" and "difference" with "threat". This sort of makes sense. From a biological point of view, a change to the environment will kick up different challenges and may require different characteristics for survival. Humans are remarkably capable of controlling their environment and have adapted to more environments than any other species. Yet somehow, our minds still have this very primitive mentality: different = bad. Without thinking we revert to this particular mind-set.

As far as I'm aware, it was very hard to get hold of Utopia tickets. And has been for a number of years. That suggests that it's continuing to do well. The fact that the people going are different doesn't really mean a great deal. For an event to be a commercial success, one has but to sell all the tickets and not incur any unexpected costs. An event cannot be more commercially successful than that. For a perennial event to be completely commercially successful, it must sell the tickets each year and maintain the cost structure. Doing that means that people have to enjoy themselves sufficiently to maintain the hype and reputation to sell out next year. Who the tickets sell to is largely irrelevant.

What would matter is if a large number of people who went this year decided not to go next year. Is that likely?

It would also matter if the negative comments were likely to affect ticket sales to the point that it no longer sells out. Again, is that likely?

Typically, as you get more people doing an activity, the average standard drops. This is a combination of simple psychology and regression to the mean. Early adopters tend to be more enthusiastic. In dancing, people who are good dancers tend to be enthusiastic (and vis versa - the causality is messy on this one). They are more likely to come from the upper half of the curve in terms of ability. For the same reason, the teachers tend to be better and the classes tend to be smaller, making it easier to teach well. As you grow, more people - and more teachers - from the middle of the curve get involved. This pulls the "average" standard down.

Is this a bad thing? Probably not. There are far more people in the middle of the curve than at either tail. For an event to be an ongoing success, it needs to draw from the middle of the curve. As long as ceroc continues to grow, I'd expect to see the following:
1. The standard of the very good dancers (and teachers) will continue to improve.
2. The number of very good dancers (and teachers) will continue to increase.
3. The proportion of very good dancers to the number of people dancing will decrease.
4. The average standard of teachers will decline.
5. The average standard of teaching will decline.
6. The overall average standard of dancing will decline.

These may sound slightly contradictory statements. But I think they hold true. And one would expect these statements to apply to Utopia and other major events as much as they apply to ceroc in general. They are not, however, a sign that things are bad.

[Gus]

Gus

Why don't you go to Utopia?

Then you might begin to know what you're talking about.

Urrrr ... as I said ..I'm trying ... slight problem is that Utopia is a LONG way away and I've got work and friday night traffic to contend with.

I will go someday, because it sounds like a place I would enjoy dancing at. Reason I stated the thread, well, a good bit of discussion about a venue is alwys good publicity and gives people chance to air differeng views .... though the evidence so far is extremely positive. Maybe my pals were just having an off night.

[Rocky]

Actually, last night was really interesting because Vince and I finally got back to where we started. Utopia was always about a mixture of ALL slower genres of music; However, when we got underway we found that our personal love of more funky tracks coupled with the wealth of new music we uncovered by listening with fresh ears (neither of us were experienced DJ's at that time) and the response of the dancers, suggested to us that we should develop that avenue a little further.

I like to think that we did help to create a new vibe and I think many other COZ environments then started to move along the same path. Of course, WCS venues were always playing that kind of music (although I think we developed it a little further) and so in essence it came at the right time. There was a growing number of WCS enthusiasts and we were also providing something a little different - so we rode the wave of starting to appeal to a much wider audience as well as drawing on the traditional blues crowd.

Over the last 3 months we started to gradually move back to our roots and, in effect, had already anticipated the kind of discussion that followed SP. But we didn't change it in one go - last night therefore saw the culmination of that process and a perception of a palpable change of music.

Contrary to what you may think Gus, it wasn't simplified music, it was just more varied. And within the description of 'varied' I mean varying styles of music with varying degrees of difficulty. In this way we aim to cater for all standards of dancers. As you know, we have always run a Beg/Int class at the beginning of every event that covers not only Blues styling (please, let's not go down the route of what 'Blues' is again..) and a more contemporary 'fusion' style that uses some element of slotting and some element of triple steps. Our philosophy has always been about encouraging more new people into the realms of slower dancing.

Now, that has a positive commercial benefit in that no two UTOPIA's are the same. Over the last 18 months we have increased our database by 600% and that's what makes us different to Hipsters. The progression in music and teaching is drawing on new dancers, but also immediately responds to the needs of our core of advanced dancers - and these two seem to sit very happily with each other, which is what we had always envisaged. And don't forget that many of the 'new' dancers of today will become the advanced dancers of tomorrow, so this method aims to build longevity into the commercial equation too.

But I think the main reason why it continues to be a success is because our customers really do seem to value the amount of effort we put into running the night. We aim to offer a consistently high level of teaching and music and also aim to create the best atmosphere we can by way of decoration, lights and even down to the welcome that people get as they walk through the door. Vince, Val and I also (within the constraints of our responsibilities) always try to socialise and dance with as many of our customers too - and thus, our focus has never been about financial gain, but has been entirely focused on the total customer experience.

Finally, of course, we also try to innovate and to keep the concept fresh and interesting with different ideas and themes: Heaven & Hell being an obvious example, the forthcoming Midnight At The Oasis being another and also the idea of an all nighter Utopia is still in discussion.

Contrary to the title of this thread I would therefore suggest that 'Utopia is not a victim of it's success,' but She, and all who sail in her, are benefactors of her success.

[Andy McGregor]

Actually, last night was really interesting because

-snip-

but She, and all who sail in her, are benefactors of her success.

At last a decent post from Rocky

All very sensible and mature - one wonders if he had a ghost writer for this one

One note of caution I have is based on external factors that are beyond the control of any organisers. The price of travel and the whole "carbon footprint" thing. I think people will travel less and look for events that are more local as the "price", be it to their pocket or the planet, of long-distance travel escalates. Having said that, my guess is that people will start getting more selective about their journeys and look for quality - and Utopia is perceived as a "quality" event.

[locoman]

One note of caution I have is based on external factors that are beyond the control of any organisers. The price of travel and the whole "carbon footprint" thing. I think people will travel less and look for events that are more local as the "price", be it to their pocket or the planet, of long-distance travel escalates. Having said that, my guess is that people will start getting more selective about their journeys and look for quality - and Utopia is perceived as a "quality" event.

the price of travel is getting more & more expensive. guess we were lucky, it's only two & a half hours away. but have to say the dancing was very good, rocky & fox's music pushes the boundaries & was excellent.
it was well worth it.

[robd]

The only victims of Utopia's success are those women who aren't on the advance list and who don't have a man to book with since it seems to sell out of tickets for single ladies pretty quickly.

Friday did seem different. Personally I was still feeling unwell - post Southport lurgy is still hanging on - so I did sit out a lot (probably looking as miserable as Rocky expects me to be) and I did notice quite a few faces I hadn't seen before but other than one person whom I struggled to stay in time with I can't say I had any dances that were of a different standard to that which I am accustomed at Utopia. I think the team are doing really well to keep selling out given the inevitable tendency of many people to move on for whatever reason. Appealing to a new audience, keeping the remaining regulars happy and not letting the event suffer a slow death by dwindling attendance is a laudable achievement.

I have joked before that I always complain about the music but that's not really the case. There was definitely a different, more downbeat feel to a lot of the stuff I heard on Friday and personally, much of that kind of stuff didn't appeal to me on any level but I also heard some stuff I really like - Say It Right, One Night Stand, Lost In You, 4 Minutes, etc - so it was definitely a mixed bag for me.

Very nice birthday cake from Almost An Angel too

[Degodier]

Like Zebra Woman , I've been to practically every Utopia. There are various reasons I keep going. The music is for me a perfect blend of challenging rhythms, hot new tracks (4 minutes- thanks very much Vince ) and absolutely the smoothest tracks you get anywhere. As a practiser of the 'bastard WCS'- that is, dancing MJ in a slot with a triple thrown in where it feels right- the WCS tracks are a pleasure because they allow me to play with rhythms and express more musicality. Every time I go to Utopia I hear tracks I've never danced to before. Personally I love R & B, more please!!!!

I thought Friday was utterly fabulous, Silver Fox & Rocky both did awesome sets and I ended up completely dehydrated and aching everywhere because I couldn't bear to leave the floor.

The turnover of dancers is interesting. IMHO the standard of dancers there is higher than anywhere else, bar none. When Hammersmith follows on the Saturday I brace myself. Sometimes there is a higher proportion of newbies at Utopia, but the less experienced seem not to return. (They're the ones who comment on how slow the music is ) The people I've spoken to- and if I see someone new I try to have a quick chat with them- are either experienced and have come because of Utopia's well-earned reputation, or they are mid-level dancers trying to expand their repertoire or 'learn blues'. But there is always, or so it appears to me, a large proportion of very experienced dancers to transport me to heaven!!!

The team, particularly Val I think is responsible for this(?), always make the venue atmosphere and decor good. The Heaven & Hell party was outstanding. I can't wait to see Midnight at the Oasis...there seem to be lots of harem girls on the way. How will the men cope? The sweeties are a nice touch too!

I think (hope) Utopia is here to stay and because of it's brilliant music and team I'm sure it will continue to go from strength to strength.

[Vegetable]

Standard Of dancers? not being funny but....

I Love Utopia AND I LEARNT BLUES HERE!
As a begginer...

So if lower standard dancers wanna come learn how to dance, how about we dont criticise them... As we were all begginers, Without good dancers how the hell are begginers going to get any better.........

Im glad i went to utopia as i begginer!

[Degodier]

Standard Of dancers? not being funny but....

I Love Utopia AND I LEARNT BLUES HERE!
As a begginer...

So if lower standard dancers wanna come learn how to dance, how about we dont criticise them... As we were all begginers, Without good dancers how the hell are begginers going to get any better.........

Im glad i went to utopia as i begginer!

My comment was in no way a criticism of beginners, I'm sorry if you thought it was. I think it is a great place for mid level dancers to learn blues- I did too as it happens! Beginners are welcome too- I am merely stating what seems to happen in general- they struggle with the slower rhythms and tend not to return until they are a little more experienced.