Are these the BEST DANCE LESSONS in the WORLD ? ? ?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Thats a big statement. Good at what? Technique, teaching at the appropriate level, well balanced routines? I can think of some very good CTA who (IMHO) are significantly better than Simon e.g, Dan Baines, Viktor, Mick, Lisa, Jive Brummie, Paul Harris, Mike Ellard. Just curious as to how you think he matches them.

I've only got the youTube videos of him to go on, and the couple of times I've been at ISH but I agree with Gus's list and I'd add more to it too.

[NZ Monkey]

Thats a big statement. Good at what? Technique, teaching at the appropriate level, well balanced routines? I can think of some very good CTA who (IMHO) are significantly better than Simon e.g, Dan Baines, Viktor, Mick, Lisa, Jive Brummie, Paul Harris, Mike Ellard. Just curious as to how you think he matches them.

Sorry - I was replying quickly and missed something I should have said. I meant he's at least as good as the majority of CTA trained teachers. In other words; it isn't as if he's any worse than what Ceroc usually produce. Hell's Bells, he was one of their top teachers for a while as I understand it!

I didn't mean to imply he was as good as some of the big names..... You've listed a handful of teachers, but there are hundreds more who barely get noticed.

[Gus]

I meant he's at least as good as the majority of CTA trained teachers. In other words; it isn't as if he's any worse than what Ceroc usually produce.

May agree with that ... but it depends on what you mean by good. For example, I'm not sure that his beginner lesson would pass CTA standards.

Hell's Bells, he was one of their top teachers for a while as I understand it! You've listed a handful of teachers, but there are hundreds more who barely get noticed.

Sorry ... but just ebacuse you are loud, in-your-face and get yourself noticed, that does NOT make you a top teacher! (I was never particulalry impressed with his teaching of technique though I was impressed at how he motivated his class) It makes you marketable and possibly a good commercial asset ... but thats different from how good you are as a teacher .... or is it?

[NZ Monkey]

May agree with that ... but it depends on what you mean by good. For example, I'm not sure that his beginner lesson would pass CTA standards.

If you mean because he doesn't use the CTA script, then probably not. I've seen his beginner classes though and I can't say there's a big (possibly any) difference in material beyond telling the class which foot to start on.

Sorry ... but just ebacuse you are loud, in-your-face and get yourself noticed, that does NOT make you a top teacher! (I was never particulalry impressed with his teaching of technique though I was impressed at how he motivated his class) It makes you marketable and possibly a good commercial asset ... but thats different from how good you are as a teacher .... or is it?

Nice editing of my quote by the way Gus

Let's be honest - Ceroc is designed to get people though the doors. As I've said previously he may not be the best teacher in the world, but technically speaking he's still a long way from the worst.

Frankly, motivating a class counts. It counts a lot. If people leave feeling like they've had a great night and learned a lot, then a Ceroc teacher has done his job. I fail to see why any other MJ teacher should be held to a different standard unless they specifically profess to being different somehow, which I think you'll find Simon has done a good job of avoiding outside generic marketing hype. Whether what they learned is valuable from a technical perspective is an entirely different debate, but a pretty hypocritical one considering Ceroc (and I'd guess most other brands of MJ) are playing the same game.

[Andy McGregor]

The question that started this thread is above. It asked about the lessons. Not the marketing.

IMHO the dance lesson I watched (the one at the top of the list on the first post) is poor to average because that's how the dancing is - there were 2 bad habits in the first 3 beats. The teaching is good as it is motivational. This is the worst combination. The teacher is very effective at passing on weak dancing.

So, to answer the question;

Are these the BEST DANCE LESSONS in the WORLD ? ? ?

NO

But I've seen worse ...

N.B. Before you all rush to your keyboards to say I shouldn't be so critical. Remember, they posted their lesson on YouTube and they asked the question. I'm answering their question in a way that provides direct feedback about what I saw

[bigdjiver]

He is asking a question. The best way for a muggle to answer it is to attend some of his lesson and then shop around to find something better. Marketing job done.

No matter how good the content and how clearly it is delivered if the class does not come back they will not develop and the business will fail. The public will pay for entertainment, they will come back if they were entertained.

[Gus]

Nice editing of my quote by the way Gus

Sorry ... wasn't trying to mislead. Though I captured what you were said ... but cut out some of the stuff in between. If I've misrepresented what you said ... oopps

Let's be honest - Ceroc is designed to get people though the doors. As I've said previously he may not be the best teacher in the world, but technically speaking he's still a long way from the worst.

Absolutely. Have to agree. To be honest, its a personal things. I've seen too many cases of 'style over substance', and maybe I'm letting taht prejudice my views.

Frankly, motivating a class counts. It counts a lot. If people leave feeling like they've had a great night and learned a lot, then a Ceroc teacher has done his job.

Again ... have to agree ...and Simon is definitely among the best for achieving this.

I fail to see why any other MJ teacher should be held to a different standard unless they specifically profess to being different somehow, which I think you'll find Simon has done a good job of avoiding outside generic marketing hype. Whether what they learned is valuable from a technical perspective is an entirely different debate, but a pretty hypocritical one considering Ceroc (and I'd guess most other brands of MJ) are playing the same game.

Not surely I totally buy this. I wouldn't brand ALL Ceroc teachers this way. Getting the punters in and entertaining them is fundamental to Ceroc (aka Dark Evil Empire that shalt crush the soul out of all those that would stand against it etc. etc.) HQ ... but many of the instructors are NOT clones. It comes back to the ongoing debate about what makes a good teacher. Entertainer or Imparter-of-knowledge?

Nice debate

[Andy McGregor]

The public will pay for entertainment, they will come back if they were entertained.

"The public" are a diverse bunch. A couple of years ago I had an email from a first-nighter: it said something like "I came for a dance lessons and, although you did teach a lesson, I got a lot of stand-up comedy that I didn't find funny or appropriate for a dance lesson - I won't be back". To balance that I've regularly had people who think they're good dancers tell me that the only reason they do my lessons and workshops is for the stand-up comedy.

So, what do you do? IMHO you do what you do and, if enough people like it, you carve out a niche for yourself. People who come to my classes like what I do - if I changed due to a single criticism I'd alienate my current customers. I'm pleased to say that, as far as I know, I teach more people each week than any other dance teacher in Sussex

That doesn't mean that everyone likes what I do, it means that some people like it. And that's all that matters to me

[Andy McGregor]

Nice debate

And so it starts again. The debate about the quality of the debate. Let's just debate and leave the reader to decide.

[Gus]

And so it starts again. The debate about the quality of the debate. Let's just debate and leave the reader to decide.

Urrr actualy I was conveying my compliments to NZM for a well argued case. Personal praise only.

[Andy McGregor]

Urrr actualy I was conveying my compliments to NZM for a well argued case. Personal praise only.

Then it could, possibly, have said "nice post" or "good contributions to the debate". The "nice debate" comment would apply to the whole debate*.

*and here we go debating the debate even more. Next we'll get nostalgic about how the debate used to be so much better than the current debate

[Gus]

So ... side steping Andy's downward spiral into pedansisim .... if THESE aren't the best Dance Lessons in the World ..... whose are?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Mine of Course.

[Martin]

So ... side steping Andy's downward spiral into pedansisim .... if THESE aren't the best Dance Lessons in the World ..... whose are?

I think the point is... It does not really matter... what matters is that the title gets hits, gets people thinking and produces income.

I am sure they were not put there "just to stoke his ego" -- some people do indeed do that... but in this case, knowing Simon, it was not done to say "look at me - I am the best"

Ya gotta be fairly insecure or delusional to make a claim yourself, to be the best dance teacher in MJ.

[Gus]

Ya gotta be fairly insecure or delusional to make a claim yourself, to be the best dance teacher in MJ.

Intersting point. BUT ... these have been many cases of DJ or Instructors claiming some form of 'Best-ness'. Are they also delusional or is it a question of degree?

Oh ... totally agree about the whole thing being a (succesfull) promotional thing. I look forward to an explosion of 'me-too' videos hitting You-Tube over the coming months .... and why not?

[Andy McGregor]

if THESE aren't the best Dance Lessons in the World ..... whose are?

The answer is that depends on the students. What is "the best" dance lesson for one student will be completely wrong for a different group of students.

The hardest bit of teaching MJ is that you have a mixed ability class. This means that, whatever level you pitch the lesson at, it will only be "best" for those students who are ready.

This means that any debate about which lessons are "best" is completely pointless. However, which teachers are "best" is a whole different thing.

[Rocky]

How big is that "but"?

My butt is about as big as your mouth, and I can only hope and pray that the two never come in contact with each other....

[Martin]

Intersting point. BUT ... these have been many cases of DJ or Instructors claiming some form of 'Best-ness'. Are they also delusional or is it a question of degree?

a question of degree

You can claim to be the current champ, a past winner, a "top" whatever.
You could claim to have the most attendies at class.
Once you claim "I am the best in the world" - at either teaching or DJ'ing - then it gets subjective.

[Andy McGregor]

My butt is about as big as your mouth, and I can only hope and pray that the two never come in contact with each other....

For once I agree with Rocky. Pert is a word that works for both parts

And I agree that the two parts shouldn't ever meet

[Dreadful Scathe]

My butt is about as big as your mouth, and I can only hope and pray that the two never come in contact with each other....

Just don't ever sit on his face then - should be easy (got to say thats a bizarre retort you came up with )